Secret empire 10 spoilers

[ZNOP]

Apparently, I missed something... Can someone tell me why Tony Stark is a hologram and where the hell his physical body is?

[Jovos2099]

In a coma following his fight with carol danvers in cw2 the hologram is an ai created by tony with his memories.

[Rogue Star]

Apparently, I missed something... Can someone tell me why Tony Stark is a hologram and where the hell his physical body is?

Spencer wanted him for the story but whoops, one of those gosh darned events screwed with his plans.

[ZNOP]

In a coma following his fight with carol danvers in cw2 the hologram is an ai created by tony with his memories.

Spencer wanted him for the story but whoops, one of those gosh darned events screwed with his plans.

And, here I thought that the "Tony A.I." was in Riri's armor...

[Rogue Star]

Hmmm. "Rumors":

http://www.screengeek.net/2017/09/02...be-in-trouble/

"The terrible reaction to Hydra Cap/Secret Empire forced a change in plans. Originally it was going to end with a quasi-Dark Reign scenario where Hydra is vanquished thanks to Kubik shenanigans and the World Security Council from the movies steps in to assume power over super heroes and everything has Civil War-era overtones with registrations, boot camps, the idea of an Inhuman ban. The Vanishing Point would be a way to bring back Steve, Tony, Thor, Banner; sort of like Hickman’s “Time Runs Out” jump-skip but in reverse, it would rewind the characters to before the Hydra subversion stars. The classic heroes realize that they have lost touch with the people and need to learn how to fight for them again. In the meantime, the new generation of Miles, Kamala, Riri and other Champions would form “the resistance” against the WSC state. (“Generation” was also planned to be the transition from the classic guys taking a step back and letting the new generation lead the charge)."

[JKtheMac]

Hmmm. "Rumors":

http://www.screengeek.net/2017/09/02...be-in-trouble/

"The terrible reaction to Hydra Cap/Secret Empire forced a change in plans. Originally it was going to end with a quasi-Dark Reign scenario where Hydra is vanquished thanks to Kubik shenanigans and the World Security Council from the movies steps in to assume power over super heroes and everything has Civil War-era overtones with registrations, boot camps, the idea of an Inhuman ban. The Vanishing Point would be a way to bring back Steve, Tony, Thor, Banner; sort of like Hickman’s “Time Runs Out” jump-skip but in reverse, it would rewind the characters to before the Hydra subversion stars. The classic heroes realize that they have lost touch with the people and need to learn how to fight for them again. In the meantime, the new generation of Miles, Kamala, Riri and other Champions would form “the resistance” against the WSC state. (“Generation” was also planned to be the transition from the classic guys taking a step back and letting the new generation lead the charge)."

Doesn't sound like rumours, sounds completely infeasible. Almost as if the person writing this is completely ignorant of any facts. Nothing about this supposed sequence of events would make any sense to anyone reading the books.

[Michael Watkins]

Forgot he reduced Vision to nothing more than a computer which his solo was about how human he really was.

Bendis did that. Half of these issues can be traced back to Bendis.

[daisetsu100]

marvel continues the tradition of having really terrible endings to their event books.

[JKtheMac]

marvel continues the tradition of having really terrible endings to their event books.

That is objective truth is it? Stange how my two favourite event endings in the history of comics are this one and the recent Secret Wars. It's almost as if appreciation of comic books was subjective.

However, I once wrote an entire essay about how endings of Marvel comics needed to get better and that I trusted the new Alonso era would provide that. I think we can clearly see that this has happened at least in the way comic events now actually have consequences. Alonso actually listened to his writers who were asking for this.

[vitruvian]

Sorry that is naive in the extreme. Plot is a sliver of the story. But I do think it is the biggest problem with fan based criticism. People want to use elements of story theory to pull apart story, but they think plot is the most important part, and as such tropes become their focus. Their notion of storytelling is poor and their criticism is flawed.

No, it's only logic. If you change a component of the whole, you have changed the whole. Anything that is not precisely the same as the way it started has changed.

Grant you, it may not be a large or terribly significant change, but it is a change. Although since plot, in its full meaning of 'what happens in the story', is not a mere sliver but essentially the backbone of a story, I don't agree that significant changes to the plot of this story, particularly its ending (although I agree with you that it is unlikely in the extreme that such changes were actually made in response to fan criticism along the way), would be a minor change at all. How a story ends, with characters winning or losing, alive or dead, is a part of that story's plot, and how a story ends can determine whether that story is a comedy or a tragedy.

So, in short:

1) Any change, even to the smallest of minor details, is nevertheless a change, in the sense that the final product is not unaltered. A change to the logo on the side of the building in the background of one building would be a change, just a very minor one with no significant impact.

2) Changes to plot, i.e., the series of events which happen in the course of the story, are not always minor changes, but can be very important indeed.

[vitruvian]

Excuse me catching up. Had to comment on this one because it is another misunderstanding. There was only ever one cosmic cube truely responsible for everything. The allied one was created as part of the causality changes that were guided by the Kobik cube. Her change of reality created this causality based upon the fairytale. So it does exist but it comes as a package. It is just a causal link in the chain, not a seperate cube that does conflicting things. Kobik just as much made it occur as she made the world that it created.

Kobik created the reality that caused Steve to have an alternate timeline, and for the allies to change some of it. She did all of that. She effectively just made the world this way all in one go at the end of Standoff. By my reading she also made quite a few things happen that were entirely unintended. For a start she didn't intend Steve to be this driven to his cause because she would have no way of understanding what she had made happen. But importantly, I don't think Elisa turning up in the modern day was part of the plan.

Nice try, but that dodge doesn't work. If Kobik's changes to reality, including HydraCap's past, are entirely and wholly real once made, then that means the Allied Cosmic Cube was entirely and wholly real and likewise could make entirely real changes to reality.

[JKtheMac]

Nice try, but that dodge doesn't work. If Kobik's changes to reality, including HydraCap's past, are entirely and wholly real once made, then that means the Allied Cosmic Cube was entirely and wholly real and likewise could make entirely real changes to reality.

No. Entirely a part of Kobik's changes. She fixes the reality we are in when she changes Cap. Nothing can happen that is not compatible with her changes.

[JKtheMac]

No, it's only logic. If you change a component of the whole, you have changed the whole. Anything that is not precisely the same as the way it started has changed.

Grant you, it may not be a large or terribly significant change, but it is a change.

Sorry what is the change we are talking about?

I could tell you the same story with different characters, different settings and different plots. None of those things matter anywhere near as much as the overall structure (I am broadly a structuralist) or the meaning of the story (I broadly agree with Egri). But given that most comic readers are obsessed with plot we get the commentary we deserve as a community.

[vitruvian]

No. Entirely a part of Kobik's changes. She fixes the reality we are in when she changes Cap. Nothing can happen that is not compatible with her changes.

Sure, all a part of her changes... which plenty of people have been pushing as entirely real in every respect. That would include the entire history remembered by Cap after she fixes him being factually accurate in all details, including there actually being an Allied Cosmic Cube, and a real one, not a fake one. Once you admit the possibility that any aspect of that past is a fiction not to be considered as a wholly real thing in and of itself, you admit the possibility of whole swathes of it being 'lesser' in terms of their reality; for example, it could really be a memory alteration, or memory alteration plus the minor physical alteration of the Hydra tattoo, to Steve himself where he honestly recalls himself as coming from this alternate timeline that previously had never existed, with the Allied Cosmic Cube as the internal logic that explains why everyone else in the world has memories (and documentary and physical evidence, up to and including time travel to the period) that are not at all compatible with his version of the past.

[JKtheMac]

Sure, all a part of her changes... which plenty of people have been pushing as entirely real in every respect. That would include the entire history remembered by Cap after she fixes him being factually accurate in all details, including there actually being an Allied Cosmic Cube, and a real one, not a fake one. Once you admit the possibility that any aspect of that past is a fiction not to be considered as a wholly real thing in and of itself, you admit the possibility of whole swathes of it being 'lesser' in terms of their reality; for example, it could really be a memory alteration, or memory alteration plus the minor physical alteration of the Hydra tattoo, to Steve himself where he honestly recalls himself as coming from this alternate timeline that previously had never existed, with the Allied Cosmic Cube as the internal logic that explains why everyone else in the world has memories (and documentary and physical evidence, up to and including time travel to the period) that are not at all compatible with his version of the past.

Sorry you have just wandered off into an unreal world yourself. What has any of that got to do with my point?