Secret empire 10 spoilers

[The Cool Thatguy]

And I'm sorry, but the time for counseling patience and not to come to any sort of judgment at all on a story is pretty long past when all that's left is a coda or epilogue. It might not be possible to render a definitive, final judgment on the story as a complete product, beginning to end, but we've certainly read and seen enough by now to have a pretty good feeling for what that judgment is going to eventually be, and it would be a pretty impressive trick to turn around many people's impressions in one more issue.

Yeah, what you said.

Comics are serial fiction yes, but they still can have an ending even if the consequences ripple out.

[Prof. Warren]

Well, I was okay with letting the story play out myself... but with just the Omega issue as coda left, I have to say that there's not a lot of room left for that patience to be rewarded. There are a whole host of issues to fit in Omega before I would be willing to say the writers brought the story to a satisfactory conclusion.

Of course, there were also those who felt that having Cap become a Nazi was in poor taste, not out of impatience, but simply because they felt this was the case regardless of how the story specifically played out. I was willing to be convinced by a really strong story that dealt with this touchy area with nuance, but at more than 90% done I'm coming more and more into sympathy with that position.

And I'm sorry, but the time for counseling patience and not to come to any sort of judgment at all on a story is pretty long past when all that's left is a coda or epilogue. It might not be possible to render a definitive, final judgment on the story as a complete product, beginning to end, but we've certainly read and seen enough by now to have a pretty good feeling for what that judgment is going to eventually be, and it would be a pretty impressive trick to turn around many people's impressions in one more issue.

Comic readers should certainly have patience enough to let a story play out before they're certain that a character is "ruined."

Many readers felt that Marvel had destroyed Captain America, ruined him, dragged an icon through the mud, and so on and so on. But now SE is coming to an end and Captain America is fine.

No one was obliged to like the story at any point but treating it as though it were the end of the world as some did is ridiculous.

Increasingly there's a segment of fandom who can't handle the serialized nature of comics. They want to know all the details of the outcome of a story even before it's begun - as well as the story after that, for that matter. They want absolute certainty at all times and that's not a good recipe for exciting stories.

Some would say "But no, SE wasn't exciting at all - it was just bad writing!" Well, for a story that was so awful, it certainly kept the interest of all the people who claimed to hate it. If I don't like something, I just walk away. I sure don't follow it until the bitter end.

If you say you didn't like SE, fine. Many others did. But if you didn't like it and yet you're still here talking about it after all these issues, desperately trying to convince others that it was so terrible, you haven't made a very good case. Bad stories engender apathy and are easily ignored. SE certainly can't be accused of that.

A divisive story, yes. A bad one, no.

[vitruvian]

Comic readers should certainly have patience enough to let a story play out before they're certain that a character is "ruined."

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Many readers felt that Marvel had destroyed Captain America, ruined him, dragged an icon through the mud, and so on and so on. But now SE is coming to an end and Captain America is fine.

No one was obliged to like the story at any point but treating it as though it were the end of the world as some did is ridiculous.

Increasingly there's a segment of fandom who can't handle the serialized nature of comics. They want to know all the details of the outcome of a story even before it's begun - as well as the story after that, for that matter. They want absolute certainty at all times and that's not a good recipe for exciting stories.

Some would say "But no, SE wasn't exciting at all - it was just bad writing!" Well, for a story that was so awful, it certainly kept the interest of all the people who claimed to hate it. If I don't like something, I just walk away. I sure don't follow it until the bitter end.

If you say you didn't like SE, fine. Many others did. But if you didn't like it and yet you're still here talking about it after all these issues, desperately trying to convince others that it was so terrible, you haven't made a very good case. Bad stories engender apathy and are easily ignored. SE certainly can't be accused of that.

A divisive story, yes. A bad one, no.

Your argument here appears to be essentially that all negative criticism is presumptively disingenuous, since if the critic truly didn't like the story they would be apathetic to it and not respond in either a positive or negative way. To which I say nuts.

[Prof. Warren]

Your argument here appears to be essentially that all negative criticism is presumptively disingenuous, since if the critic truly didn't like the story they would be apathetic to it and not respond in either a positive or negative way. To which I say nuts.

Not disingenuous but certainly if someone stays with a story over a prolonged period of time, it speaks to the fact that they were engaged. Perhaps more than its detractors would care to admit. SE was polarizing but the passionate reaction and thoughtful analysis that accompanied it throughout its run - both positive and negative - is a testimony to its weight as a story.

[Prof. Warren]

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Also, when someone has an absolutely terrible argument to make - like defending people who grossly overreacted to the HydraCap saga and vilified Marvel and Nick Spencer before waiting until the entire story had unfolded - saying "strawman" as a defense on their behalf doesn't work.

Fans who dragged Marvel and Spencer over the coals, issued death threats, accused them of cheering Anti-Semitism, and so on don't get to hide behind the argument that "they didn't know" how the story would end. No, they didn't know - which is why that vitriol should've been contained. It's one thing to not think a story is for you and to choose not to support it but to go on the attack as some did is not a valid response.

[vitruvian]

Also, when someone has an absolutely terrible argument to make - like defending people who grossly overreacted to the HydraCap saga and vilified Marvel and Nick Spencer before waiting until the entire story had unfolded - saying "strawman" as a defense on their behalf doesn't work.

Fans who dragged Marvel and Spencer over the coals, issued death threats, accused them of cheering Anti-Semitism, and so on don't get to hide behind the argument that "they didn't know" how the story would end. No, they didn't know - which is why that vitriol should've been contained. It's one thing to not think a story is for you and to choose not to support it but to go on the attack as some did is not a valid response.

I neither claimed that the event 'ruined' Captain America as a character, nor defended those people who grossly overreacted and vilified Marvel and Spencer personally or even issued death threats. I did express a growing sense of agreement with those who felt that making Cap, even temporarily or as an evil twin (as it turned out), a Nazi, was always going to be in poor taste regardless of the merits of the story otherwise, and would require practically a miracle of stellar storytelling throughout the entirety of the event in order to even begin to be justified, which it was apparent we were not getting from pretty early on, but nowhere did I argue that the character was ruined or that those who have claimed such were correct, and that claim was the part of the post to which I replied with the referee call.

So yes, you were indeed engaging in a straw man argument by responding to a position I had never taken.

Deal.

[Prof. Warren]

I neither claimed that the event 'ruined' Captain America as a character, nor defended those people who grossly overreacted and vilified Marvel and Spencer personally or even issued death threats. I did express a growing sense of agreement with those who felt that making Cap, even temporarily or as an evil twin (as it turned out), a Nazi, was always going to be in poor taste regardless of the merits of the story otherwise, and would require practically a miracle of stellar storytelling throughout the entirety of the event in order to even begin to be justified, which it was apparent we were not getting from pretty early on, but nowhere did I argue that the character was ruined or that those who have claimed such were correct, and that claim was the part of the post to which I replied with the referee call.

So yes, you were indeed engaging in a straw man argument by responding to a position I had never taken.

Deal.

My point being that some fans grossly overreacted from the very jump, in a way that was wildly disproportionate to what was happening as well as being premature in judgement.

Your point being that, "Well hey, I can kind of see where these people are coming from."

Yeah, certainly not going to excuse death threats; nothing that someone does in writing a work of fiction merits that. But the fact that some people complaining about the series went there, does not in itself mean that all complaints about the series, e.g., that it was in really poor taste to turn a character created by two Jewish guys into essentially a Nazi for the sake of cheap drama and shock value, are necessarily without merit.

Of course, there were also those who felt that having Cap become a Nazi was in poor taste, not out of impatience, but simply because they felt this was the case regardless of how the story specifically played out. I was willing to be convinced by a really strong story that dealt with this touchy area with nuance, but at more than 90% done I'm coming more and more into sympathy with that position.

...Which is essentially making a de facto apology on behalf of those people, while trying to also distance yourself from their extremism.

You know, "Jeez, it's bad but what did Marvel expect?"

Well, you'd expect them to 1) read the actual story. Stevil himself was never a Nazi. A fascist, yes, and a very bad guy but the story very clearly established that he was Hydra and that Hydra and Nazis were not one and the same. And 2) to have the common sense to know that no one at Marvel is going to tell a story that would permanently turn Steve Rogers into everything he's always fought against. It seems worth waiting for a conclusion on that front. And finally 3) to keep things in perspective. This is comics, after all. I don't care what's done to anyone's favorite character - it's still a fictional character and one's passion for the fictional life of a character doesn't excuse real world attacks on and ugly accusations towards actual people.