Westeros vs Essos

[HFMM]

Before the start of Game of Thrones. Basically no Others or Dragons.

Both side have a month to prepare before an all out war. Who would win?

[The Drunkard Kid]

Before the start of Game of Thrones.

Both side have a month to prepare before an all out war. Who would win?

Do the Others count as part of Westeros?

[HFMM]

Do the Others count as part of Westeros?

This is before they woke up, so their not in play.

[Chris Lang]

I think it's worth reiterating just what resources both Westeros and Essos have at the point in time you're speaking of, just so we know what's available in this hypothetical scenario.

[Pendaran]

This is before they woke up, so their not in play.

It seems pretty clear they were awake for some time before show start. They're the entire reason Maynce Rayder became King Beyond the Wall and formed his horde, to get the hell away from them. They've been awake long enough to have been taking Craster's male babies for years on end at that.

Really they might as well count. A better argument would that they wouldn't have a big ol army of the dead serving them yet.

[hydro123456]

I feel like Essos is probably way richer than Westeros due to how many large cities they have. Weteros if I'm not mistaken only has 4 cities (King's Landing, Old Town, White Harbor, and Lannisport), and they're not as big as the ones in Essos. Due to all the trade they do, I would imagine Essos would also have a much larger Navy. Military-wise, they have hundreds of thousand Dothraki, the Unsullied, and several large mercenary companies, not to mention whatever kind of military each of the city states has. I'd give it to Essos.

[StupidMoniker]

Westeros, on the other hand, seems to have a major technological advantage. Although Braavos seems Renaissance-ish, they do not have guns, while Westeros has full plate. In fact, Essos seems to have less than bronze age technology, at least in terms of armor. This is like Aztecs versus medieval Germans.

[hydro123456]

I feel like full plate is pretty rare though, and with the exception of the Lannister army, I don't think most of the armies are exceptionally well armored. Also the Dothraki make up for their lack of armor with the fact that their entire army is mounted.

[StupidMoniker]

Meh, the Dothraki are not much different than the Scythians and they were defeated by Alexander with a bronze age army. An army with over 1000 years development on top of that should not have much problem. The Dothraki are supremely vulnerable to archers, which we have seen from pretty much every Westerosi group, including the wildlings. A phalanx backed by foot archers is going to be a tough nut for them to crack. As for the rarity of plate armor, it seemed perfectly abundant in the Vale. The north has plate breastplates at a minimum (and Jorah Mormont, from Bear Island certainly seemed familiar enough). The Kingsguard has plate, showing that it was known to those in King's Landing as well.

[Sophicles]

In terms of sheer population, Essos is much greater, especially if you include like the armies from Yi Ti. Plus the Yi Tish and the Asshaii have like tons of magic, in addition to the magical Faceless men who can assassinate key leaders and cause collapse of alliances or sow mistrust. Also other warlocks in Qarth if they still exist. If they all collaborate and prep using their pooled resources, there's no telling what nasty things they can concoct. Essos has sorcerers and dark arts on their side that almost nobody in Westeros can match. The maesters flat out avoid anything supernatural, and only Qyburn has ever studied anything beyond their restrictions.

[Twickster]

Westeros, on the other hand, seems to have a major technological advantage. Although Braavos seems Renaissance-ish, they do not have guns, while Westeros has full plate. In fact, Essos seems to have less than bronze age technology, at least in terms of armor. This is like Aztecs versus medieval Germans.

The technology difference between Westeros and Essos is not as vast as between the Aztecs and Germans, and in addition, the Aztecs did not lose so much because of the technology gap as it was because of poor tactics and strategy as well as very poor politics. The Spanish knew full well that the Aztecs could have wiped them out at any time had their leadership got themselves in order and they applied even a modicum of competence. The diseases also contributed a great deal in depopulating cities, even before the Spanish arrived, which is not the case between Westeros and Essos.

Its not exactly apples to oranges, and even if it was, the advantages of the Spanish over the Aztecs is not exactly the same as Westeros over Essos.

[Twickster]

Meh, the Dothraki are not much different than the Scythians and they were defeated by Alexander with a bronze age army. An army with over 1000 years development on top of that should not have much problem.l.

The issue here is that this is Alexander you're talking about, which just speaks for the importance of strategy. Plus, Greek phalanx and cavalry + Persian-style archers (basically, archers were a much larger percentage of armies in Alexander's time), are very different from the kind of armies deployed by the west a thousand years later (which are much closer to the heavy cavalry/plate armor warfare seen in Westeros. The same kind of armies the Mongols rolled over.

And then you're not just talking about mongol analogues (Dothraki). You're also talking about Greek Phalanx analogues (Unsullied); plus massive sellsword companies (Free Cities); plus a fleet of warships larger than the Iron Fleet (Bravos); plus actual magic and magical assassins who do in fact assassinate people on a regular basis (so goodbye leadership).

Given these and the numerical advantages, and barring the White Walkers, most likely Essos crushes Westeros with ease.

[Pendaran]

I would like to note the Dothraki are terrible, completely, absolutely rubbish Mongol analogues. A lot of the reasons the Mongols dominated had to do with things the Dothraki don't even remotely try to do or look to have the capability of, from tactics to panoply of gear to methods of supply. The Mongol invasion of Europe also ended before we could really get a good look at how they'd handle the Holy Roman Empire under Frederick. When not being undermined by their own infighting and just outright mind blowing tactical stupidity as far as the choices they made, heavy cavalrymen actually did okay against the Mongols, as evidenced by things like later invasions attempts where the Mongols lost.

The Dothraki happen to have their army be mounted. That is their big ol similarity to the Mongols.

[Pendaran]

Basically I find it exasperating when people try to talk about the Dothraki being the Mongols, especially when Dothraki tactics don't look like anything more than "zerg rush, maybe fire a few arrows" in the show, and in the books/historical conflicts they did things like get by on some enemies by sacrificing thousands of their own men, having otherwise huge ass numbers, and at times seeming to follow the Zap Branigan school of combat after having read his Big Book of War by sending wave after wave of men onwards until the killbots reach their kill limit. It speaks honestly to Essos' own troop quality in unflattering ways (outside of the Unsullied) being kind of garbage that that keeps working anyway. For centuries. With no one even trying to adapt to it.

edit: The Mongols were one of the most sophisticated fighting forces to exist, is what I'm getting at, and also were really, really good at exploiting the deeply questionable tactics and preparations of their enemies. The Dothraki are comparatively basically orcs on horseback.

[Twickster]

Yes, apologies. The Mongols did well because they leveraged their mobility and range game as opposed to the other armies of the day, which is a far cry from what the Dothraki do. So, yes, not exact (or even very good) analogues.

But I would like to think that the Dothraki in this case would be led by actual generals (either from the Free Cities or the sellsword companies), given that they are supposed to be a unified force under the scenario, which would mitigate some of this. Plus, what they make up for in lack of tactics, they make up for in physical stats (which is far and above any "realistic" army, or your standard Westerosi footman, for that matter). The armored knights don't make up the majority (or even a large number) of the armies in Westeros.