Revamp a Hero....

[Michael Watkins]

Hmm, thanks. So are you.

you did Ollie Osnick already. are you going to attempt revamping of any other spider-characters?

[Sutekh]

right. that makes sense. in mine, mymecology was his childhood hobby; the gateway drug to studying anatomy and biology. since my version was a biochemist, I didn't see it as too much of a stretch that he'd discover how to use artificial pheromones to instruct insects. but it works as well to put the focus on him as a technologist. with hindsight being 20/20, I would have just established upfront that he created tiny robots that were then made to resemble insects; as part of the 'Ant-Man' motif. sounds silly but the putting insects at risk/disrupting their natural evolution/etc could be perceived as un-PC nowadays. I'm fine with either way. maybe he learned how to simply trigger insects to attack a target but flies around on a mechanical "ant" of his own design. I've never understood how they even support his weight.

Ooh, I like the little mechanical ants concept. An old idea for upgrading the Wasp was to have her use tiny flying-ant-robots in a mechanical swarm to disassemble machines, shock people (each invidually giving off a tiny shock), administer sedatives, interface with technology, etc. (and to have the machines themselves designed by Jocasta, who would work alongside Janet).

I would love to read a Tales to Astonish book that followed your takes on Pym, Janet and Scott Lang, among others. You've got some of the freshest ideas I've heard for those characters.

neat. i also included some proto-mutants in my revamp. i think it makes sense for them to be in Pym's orbit; given his science background. it almost makes it a bit more personal between Jan and Whirlwind.

I had not thought of that. If Janet was a mutant, then Whirlwind might have yet another rationale for why she 'belongs' with him, and not a non-mutant like Pym (or Paladin, or Black Knight, or Johnny Storm, or whomever else she's seen out and about with, that triggers him, whether she's actually dating them or just hanging out / catching up).

EXTENDED PYM LEGACY (JANET)
. I’d set up Paladin as sort of her answer “Catwoman” or “Black Cat.” She knows that he’s taken some dirty jobs but enjoy the thrill of being with a globe-trotting mercenary. That’s not to say that they would occasionally be on opposite sides of an altercation. He would screw her over, if necessary (and vice versa).

I like that. Paladin's kind of neat, in that he's got very different motivations than super-heroes, being far more mercenary. Scott Lang is at least trying to do the right thing, even if he occasionally falls down in the execution because of his skillset and experience and default inclinations being better suited towards a shiftier extra-legal solution. Paladin just does not care. Get it done.

. Jan’s primary archnemesis would be Kashmir Venemma; a wealthy businesswoman with a highly unconventional business model involving the exploitation of several dimensions, an alliance with her own dopplegangers, and numerous illegal activities. Despite having a similar upbringing, she would only know Jan; in passing before the grudge gets real. I picked Kashmir because she’s also been A.I.M-affiliated. Plus she operates in a “hive” of Kashmir Venemmas; across multiple realities. I like the idea of Wasp having to worry about taking down one villainess; only to have a worse version fill the void.

Ooh, I had never heard of this character, so I Googled her, and she's really very interesting as a villain for Janet!

Heck, she'd be an interesting villain for the Fantastic Four, or other tech-based hero (such as Iron Man), as well, or Black Widow, who she may be trying to 'get back' by killing as many Black Widows as she can, across dimensions...

I'd be concerned by the notion that since there a lot of her, that she'd 'die' a lot. It would begin to look dubious if Kash's kept showing up on Earth, if they all just seem to die here... ("Yeah, we don't go to 616 anymore. Seven of us have been killed there, so it's off-limits. It's not like there aren't hundreds of other Earth's out there were we *don't* get killed to exploit... So anyway, Earth 235 has just repelled a Skrull invasion, and it's surviving hero population, militaries and law enforcement are trashed, so we're going to go pillage the crap out of it and get some sweet Skrull tech, and also pick through the corpses of their world's Stark Industries, Four Freedom's Plaza, etc.")

Which actually sounds like an interesting plot-seed. Janet has assemble a team to stop Kash from pillaging some other Earth, not just to protect the people of that Earth, but because anything Kash pillages will get disseminated to threaten other Earths, including 616 Earth, eventually. And it could get serious if it turns out that Earth 235's heroes, governments, militaries, etc. have been so badly trashed that a couple dozen of Kash decide that they can just take it over, and use it as their new base, and they're using Pym tech (among other things) as part of their invasion (armies of giant bugs!) which makes it personal!

[Michael Watkins]

Ooh, I like the little mechanical ants concept. An old idea for upgrading the Wasp was to have her use tiny flying-ant-robots in a mechanical swarm to disassemble machines, shock people (each invidually giving off a tiny shock), administer sedatives, interface with technology, etc. (and to have the machines themselves designed by Jocasta, who would work alongside Janet).

that could be really cool. sounds more like something Pym (as Wasp) would do, though. my version of Jan is a lot more action-hero-y. she'd be formidable w/o powers. my version of Pym is a kind of a pacifist, in the sense that he'd rather approach problems using science/his mind than slugging it out (although still being well practiced in the martial art Wing Chun). his mechanical "ant" helpers would be quite versatile and have a lot of the features that you listed. sometimes, he'd just use them to surround/protect innocent bystanders or disable weaponry. this facet of Pym's personality is important to me because it one of the things that make him stand out from the other Pym particle users. he approaches everything like a brain teaser. and his rogues gallery would include a lot of characters who specialize in complex/multi-leveled master plans. A.I.M would continually attempt to recruit him as Scientist Supreme or kill him (considering him to be a real threat to their mad science).

I would love to read a Tales to Astonish book that followed your takes on Pym, Janet and Scott Lang, among others. You've got some of the freshest ideas I've heard for those characters.

thank you for participating in the thread. you've inspired me to think in different ways about the characters.

I had not thought of that. If Janet was a mutant, then Whirlwind might have yet another rationale for why she 'belongs' with him, and not a non-mutant like Pym (or Paladin, or Black Knight, or Johnny Storm, or whomever else she's seen out and about with, that triggers him, whether she's actually dating them or just hanging out / catching up).

^that's what I was talking about. you inspired me to do that when you brought back the mutant angle for Jan. it's something that is never brought up but I wonder what Whirlwind thinks of his mutancy. I don't think I've ever seen him run from a sentinel or be prejudged by other villains for being a mutant. I was rereading a flashback involving him where all of the neighborhood kids thought that his spinning was cool but wish that he wasn't such a bully. so he's had a really unique mutant experience. but I fully agree w/ your take on it. he thinks that Jan belongs to him. and he's kind of reverse racist about the idea of her "settling" for a human.

as for Paladin, his in comics history is a complete mystery (intentionally). the character study that I did for the purposes of this revamp, have him as someone who has personally experienced poverty; living out of a car and going hungry for days. I feel like it was similar to Steve Rogers upbringing. he watched one of his parents be kind to others/work hard and see no reward for it. so he grew up with wealth as a goal and took risks to attain it. Jan, an heiress, probably represents more to him; than even she suspects. I'm honestly not even sure where Paladin got his powers from. he could be a mutant for all I know. but it's not important to the revamp. I just don't want to paint him as a solid villain. he rides the line. he's not some killer. but he's been a soldier and mercenary; definitely not a self-sacrificial one.

I like that. Paladin's kind of neat, in that he's got very different motivations than super-heroes, being far more mercenary. Scott Lang is at least trying to do the right thing, even if he occasionally falls down in the execution because of his skillset and experience and default inclinations being better suited towards a shiftier extra-legal solution. Paladin just does not care. Get it done.

yeah, he thinks that the costumed set have their priorities all out of whack.

Ooh, I had never heard of this character, so I Googled her, and she's really very interesting as a villain for Janet!

she hasn't had that many appearances. but she was trying to take advantage of the terrigenesis; w/ the rest of AIM (in the Inhumanity storyline). that's where I really became a fan.

Heck, she'd be an interesting villain for the Fantastic Four, or other tech-based hero (such as Iron Man), as well, or Black Widow, who she may be trying to 'get back' by killing as many Black Widows as she can, across dimensions...

them too. she should definitely encounter the Four and/or align with the Frightful Four.

I'd be concerned by the notion that since there a lot of her, that she'd 'die' a lot. It would begin to look dubious if Kash's kept showing up on Earth, if they all just seem to die here... ("Yeah, we don't go to 616 anymore. Seven of us have been killed there, so it's off-limits. It's not like there aren't hundreds of other Earth's out there were we *don't* get killed to exploit... So anyway, Earth 235 has just repelled a Skrull invasion, and it's surviving hero population, militaries and law enforcement are trashed, so we're going to go pillage the crap out of it and get some sweet Skrull tech, and also pick through the corpses of their world's Stark Industries, Four Freedom's Plaza, etc.")

that could definitely work. in my head, it was almost a 'The Prestige' situation. her corporation would have identified Kashmir Venemmas of other worlds that are lower functioning or unwilling to align with the organization. they'd be marked as expendable. and they'd have a way of temporarily swapping them out; when one of the more ruthless Kashmirs is in a situation where death is likely. they could also go the clone route. she had a baseball sized planet full of telepaths. clone technology wouldn't be all that strange, for her.

[Huntsman Spider]

you did Ollie Osnick already. are you going to attempt revamping of any other spider-characters?

That's a good question. I was thinking of something with Joe Wade, the "Cyber Scarlet Spider" from the brief switchover from "Spider-Man" to "Scarlet Spider" back in the 90s. Mostly, that the nanotech grafted to his system when the VR machine he was trapped in to power Carolyn Trainer's Scarlet Spider hologram malfunctioned was harvested by the FBI and then leased to S.H.I.E.L.D. for the sake of creating their own spider-powered agent. Not only would the person infused with the nanotech have the standard Spider-Man power set, the user would also have adaptive functions (mainly weapons generation) to match any threat faced by him or her, as well as remote hacking capabilities. The only problem would be ensuring that the destructive personality originally programmed into the Cyber Scarlet Spider never resurfaces, though the threat of it happening could create a situation similar to more heroic versions of Venom.

[Michael Watkins]

That's a good question. I was thinking of something with Joe Wade, the "Cyber Scarlet Spider" from the brief switchover from "Spider-Man" to "Scarlet Spider" back in the 90s. Mostly, that the nanotech grafted to his system when the VR machine he was trapped in to power Carolyn Trainer's Scarlet Spider hologram malfunctioned was harvested by the FBI and then leased to S.H.I.E.L.D. for the sake of creating their own spider-powered agent. Not only would the person infused with the nanotech have the standard Spider-Man power set, the user would also have adaptive functions (mainly weapons generation) to match any threat faced by him or her, as well as remote hacking capabilities. The only problem would be ensuring that the destructive personality originally programmed into the Cyber Scarlet Spider never resurfaces, though the threat of it happening could create a situation similar to more heroic versions of Venom.

I know nothing of this storyline. i'll have to do some research. I vaguely remember Seward Trainer.

[Michael Watkins]

while I'm still thinking about it...

REVAMP OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE'S BIBLE BELT

most of the heroes have New York. the villains now have Baggalia. the mutants have had San Francisco and Genosha. Daredevil has Hell's Kitchen. I'd want them to establish that the lower states are hotbeds for supernatural activities. name a "marvel monster" and they probably spend a lot of time in these areas. the mental patient who serves as Sleepwalker's passageway to this realm would be institutionalized in Missouri. Man-Thing's still in the Everglades. Ghost Rider's mobile but active in Texas. Hellstrom's digs would be in Georgia. Lousiana would be rife with vampires. I know that California has the Pride and whatever old gods that they worship. but this would be different. at some point in Marvel History, these areas of the U.S. were turned inside out and lost their protection from the supernatural. and they'd be somewhat accustomed to the strange; allowing guys like Morbius and Blade to feel at home. if you remember the old tv series 'Tales from the Darkside,' it's like that (but on a smaller scale). I did it this way to keep a lot of the marvel horror stuff separate from the sunnier costumed hero side of things. they occasionally overlap. but I'd want someone like Carol Danvers to know that she's entered the twilight zone when she travels downstate. and when I refer to it being the bible belt, I'm talking about the smaller towns. someone who lives in one of the bigger cities (like Monica Rambeau) might never encounter the strangeness outside of their city limits.

[Huntsman Spider]

I know nothing of this storyline. i'll have to do some research. I vaguely remember Seward Trainer.

Yeah, Seward Trainer had his mind stuck in virtual reality and his body in a coma for a bit during the Clone Saga. They kept him hooked up to the Internet in case he found a way to jack back into his body, and in the meantime, he gave Ben Reilly's existence actual legal standing.

[Mutant God]

Miles Morales - In order to fit in with Earth-616 heres my version of his new origin, A rival of the Prowler attacks him and ends up injuring Miles, Prowler makes a deal The Spider Society (The same group that created Anya) and they saved Miles by giving him spider-powers while in exchange both Prowler and Miles must spy on other Spider heroes for them.

Sam Alexander - After the battle in Cancerverse, Rider's helmet escapes it and lands back on Earth (616) where Jesse Alexander finds it and decides to keep it but sometime later some aliens want to find the helmet and kidnap Jesse demanding to know where it is. Sam discovers the helmet and is told by the aliens to trade it for his father but Sam uses it instead to save his father and defeat the aliens. When Jesse wakes up after being knocked out, Sam tells him it was a dream and that there was no helmet.

Riri Willaims - When one of Tony's armor explodes, thanks to sabotage from one of his villains, it send pieces everywhere including into the chest of nerdy teenage Riri Willaims. Tony saves her by putting in a pacemaker-like device that enabled Riri's heart to keep beating like the one he had when he had almost died. Tony decides to teach her how the device works but Riri quickly learns it and has ideas on how to improve it, Tony is very impressed and decides to take Riri on as an protege.

[Huntsman Spider]

Miles Morales - In order to fit in with Earth-616 heres my version of his new origin, A rival of the Prowler attacks him and ends up injuring Miles, Prowler makes a deal The Spider Society (The same group that created Anya) and they saved Miles by giving him spider-powers while in exchange both Prowler and Miles must spy on other Spider heroes for them.

Sam Alexander - After the battle in Cancerverse, Rider's helmet escapes it and lands back on Earth (616) where Jesse Alexander finds it and decides to keep it but sometime later some aliens want to find the helmet and kidnap Jesse demanding to know where it is. Sam discovers the helmet and is told by the aliens to trade it for his father but Sam uses it instead to save his father and defeat the aliens. When Jesse wakes up after being knocked out, Sam tells him it was a dream and that there was no helmet.

Riri Willaims - When one of Tony's armor explodes, thanks to sabotage from one of his villains, it send pieces everywhere including into the chest of nerdy teenage Riri Willaims. Tony saves her by putting in a pacemaker-like device that enabled Riri's heart to keep beating like the one he had when he had almost died. Tony decides to teach her how the device works but Riri quickly learns it and has ideas on how to improve it, Tony is very impressed and decides to take Riri on as an protege.

I like your ideas. All three characters get a lot of flack for how they replaced their predecessors, but you did a pretty good job integrating their stories with those of said predecessors and using that to actually advance the original heroes' stories instead of interrupting them or cutting them short. By the way, which Prowler are you referring to, the one that was Miles's uncle or the one who works with Peter's Spider-Man?

[Michael Watkins]

Some Quick Hits:

Pym legacy + Marvel Science Heroes continued…

. Ultron would be a co-creation of Maria Trovaya (a cyberneticist) and Henry Pym (a biophysicist)

. it would be intended to safeguard humanity; because of Pym's pacifist leanings

. the fist display of his intelligence would be its choice to make itself look like a blend of Maria and Henry

. Ultron's evolution would have it choose to look less and less human; as time goes on

. Vision would be created by Ultron from a Stark-warehoused "golden aged" war-time android named A.R.C.U.S (dubbed the Vision by the American press) and the Jarvis A.I. but, in effect, would be neither/be a brand new artificial being.

. Janet Van Dyne and Sue Storm would have been recruited early on to act as surveillance agents by SHIELD; becoming fast friends/”sisters” despite very different upbringings. And they would agree to do this, outside of their respective teams, because of a shared role model in Peggy Carter (using her movie origins, for the purposes of revamps).

. Howard Stark would have recruited Vernon Van Dyne into SHIELD (see: earlier Pym Legacy revamp). He and Maria Stark also would have watched Jan grow up.

. Howard Stark and Nathaniel Richards would have been recruited into SHIELD (really just a cover for the Wheel) early on; specifically, because a vision showed their offspring kicking off a new age of heroes. This was important to them because the “super-heroes” of Davinci’s time were all geniuses or scientists of some sort. This leads to a lot of the marvel geniuses being surveilled and steered towards their destinies. That’s why they often lack parental figures or have harsh upbringings.

. WWII (late 50s) and the Cold War (the 90s) last longer in Marvel continuity because of the emergency of, first, Hydra and then (later) superhumans.

. this made Natasha Romanoff’s defection and the use of the Winter Soldier more important.

. Marvel U.S. isn’t as dependent on China because of the Starks and the Richards of the world.

MUTANTKIND CONTINUED...

. the mutant population in Russia and Japan would be greater than that in the United States. But they would have immediately put them in camps; using the strong as military assets and euthanizing those that they couldn’t control or use. In the Middle East and parts of Africa, they would be seen as bad omens and killed; the moment that their powers first displayed.

. mutancy would originate from a rogue celestial whose “blood” carried the virus that became the x-gene. It would have crashed to Earth prior to humanity. But there would be traces of it in the atmosphere due to natural disasters and shifts in weather. People could be carriers of the gene and never display actual mutancy. It is generally activated by extreme stress and radiation exposure. In the late 70s, the number of mutants skyrocketed; for unexplained reasons.

. on another note, bits of the celestial carcas would have also been encountered by a caveman named Eshu; would would go on to menace Alpha Flight, as the Master.
. The majority of mutants don’t survive the initial expression of their personal evolution; sometimes displaying as severe illness or a destructive explosion. This and the media spin of it makes mutancy very scary to “normal” people. it’s believe by some to be an attack from an enemy of the U.S.

. Reed Richards is one of the first mainstream heroes to be tasked with studying the phenomena. He and his wife also do their best to counter the public fear of mutants; with press announcements. They encourage the Avengers to do the same (which, eventually, leads to them recruiting Wanda and Pietro).

. Charles Xavier is english for the purposes of my revamp; mainly because I can’t separate Patrick Stewart’s voice from his dialogue. But the family estate is still located in upstate New York.

[Michael Watkins]

PYM Legacy continued...

ERIC O'GRADY

boy, did I ever have a hard time thinking of how to revamp him. his origin's just about perfect, imo. i'll leave it be. if I were to change anything, I would have had Veronica lie about carrying his child; to test him. but it's not that important. paying child support but staying out of his child's life is just another notch on the douchebag belt.

fast forwarding ahead to the Descendants arc.

. Eric, in his first real act of selflessness, is mortally wounded while defending a child from the Descendants.

. instead of dying, Eric would be brought to Father and given the option of a) dying or b) having what's left of him placed inside of an artificial version of his old body

. Eric, being very scared of dying, would choose the latter.

. Father would cut him loose; seeing it as a win for their side and a psychological attack against their enemies (that will come into play, later).

. Eric would keep what happened a complete secret from the others; as it's his nature to do. Black Widow would be the only one to openly voice her suspicions.

. at some point, the secret gets out (maybe because Pym examines him). Eric (seeing that his teammates don't trust him anyways) pretends to side with the Descendants only to put himself into a position to double cross them later.

. Eric fights on the side of the Avengers but is badly injured (but not killed) by one of the Descendants; maybe one of the Deathloks or the Reavers.

. at the climax of the story, Clint Barton makes the tough decision to destroy the magical soul orb that allows the Descendants to live; despite Eric (fully believing that he will die) begging him not to.

. the orb is destroyed but Eric, to his surprise, hasn't died (is just temporarily stunned). Father hadn't used the orb to animate the LMD because Eric hadn't actually died/still had a soul. he sees his former team leave the site of the battle; thinking him dead.

. at some point, Mad Thinker shows up to scavenge the technology left in the wake of the Descendants battle. he repairs Eric's physical form.

. Eric, mistakenly thinking that the Avengers abandoned him, falls in with the Illuminati (but less murder-y); he's been promised a flesh and blood body.

. he continues to exist as a morally grey individual and deal w/ having lost his physical form

. becomes sheriff Taskmaster's deputy on the island of Bagallia.

[Mutant God]

I like your ideas. All three characters get a lot of flack for how they replaced their predecessors, but you did a pretty good job integrating their stories with those of said predecessors and using that to actually advance the original heroes' stories instead of interrupting them or cutting them short. By the way, which Prowler are you referring to, the one that was Miles's uncle or the one who works with Peter's Spider-Man?

Both, I would make Miles and Hobie related whether its his uncle or even father since Miles uses his mother's last name so any story could cover why he uses his mother's name.

[Huntsman Spider]

Both, I would make Miles and Hobie related whether its his uncle or even father since Miles uses his mother's last name so any story could cover why he uses his mother's name.

Hmm, that could work, and given that Hobie's an inventor himself, he could pass on some skills to Miles and help him build his own web-shooters after having had to cover for Peter's secret identity a few times in the past.

[Michael Watkins]

Both, I would make Miles and Hobie related whether its his uncle or even father since Miles uses his mother's last name so any story could cover why he uses his mother's name.

that could work. it's less messy.

[Huntsman Spider]

that could work. it's less messy.

Maybe. Wouldn't be that messy, though, as Hobie has had imposters misusing the Prowler identity in the past and we could just chalk up Aaron Davis as another one of those imposters. In fact, I think it's kind of a wasted opportunity on Marvel's part that Hobie and Aaron didn't have an encounter in the past.