No more politics in the comics???

[Mep90]

Neither of those examples hold up to scrutiny if you're referring to the actual books.

Carol was trying to prevent potential tragedies by operating from intel from a precognitive individual. Was she wrong to do so? Arguably yes. And also arguably no. It's a debatable point, just as many real world law enforcement tactics have their defenders and detractors.

And did the Inhumans know the effect that the Terrigen Cloud would have on mutants before they released it? No. Did they think it would only affect Inhumans? Yes.

So their intent wasn't to "gas a minority to death." They're guilty of carelessness, not malice. And it was Black Bolt's decision, not one that he gained the approval of his people to carry out in the first place.

It doesn't matter, heroes were behaving in terrible ways, and dealing with problems in terrible ways, everything started with Tony Stark in CW 1. For one time when you see a hero doing something one could look up too there are dozens of time where they behave awful and everything is just shrug away...

I haven't read SE but I think there was an issue, I've the spoileers where Pymtron called the heroes out on their crap, and Marvel legacy, was being marketed as "heroes vs villains" So I'm sure I'm not the only one that find the heroes behaviour in the last decade appaling...

[Prof. Warren]

It doesn't matter, heroes were behaving in terrible ways, and dealing with problems in terrible ways, everything started with Tony Stark in CW 1. For one time when you see a hero doing something one could look up too there are dozens of time where they behave awful and everything is just shrug away...

Marvel heroes have always been flawed. It's what has set them apart from the beginning. They're complex, multifaceted human beings who are capable of making mistakes. If they were perfect and never slipped up, they wouldn't be interesting people - they'd just be glorified action figures.

[Mep90]

Marvel heroes have always been flawed. It's what has set them apart from the beginning. They're complex, multifaceted human beings who are capable of making mistakes. If they were perfect and never slipped up, they wouldn't be interesting people - they'd just be glorified action figures.

Commiting genocide or mass murder in not a mere flaw...

[Jokerz79]

Inhumans can live without Terrigen the only effect would be future generations wouldn't have powers so once the Inhumans namely the Royal Family knew the Terrigen Cloud was fatal to Mutants and still decided to not allow the X-Men to dispose of it with the threat of war. Sorry but at that moment they became truly "Inhuman" there are hundreds of Marvel "Villains" not as evil as the Inhuman Royal Family given their actions with the Terrigen Cloud.

[dragonmp93]

Commiting genocide or mass murder in not a mere flaw...

If you are not a mutant, then yes, its a mere flaw.

[Mep90]

If you are not a mutant, then yes, its a mere flaw.

I mean what bothersme is that is always just shrugged off as if nothing. Wolverine is a massmurderer yes but well he is an antihero and this is something that always haunted him, my problem is making every hero like that, guys that are supposed to be good, making them do disgusting stuff and then act as if nothing...

They have Carol act like a fascist and the everybody loves her wtf

[Prof. Warren]

Commiting genocide or mass murder in not a mere flaw...

And that's not what they did.

You can claim that it is but that's not what's depicted in the books.

There was no intent to kill. It was a tragic, unforeseen side effect. Not a premeditated act.

[Mep90]

And that's not what they did.

You can claim that it is but that's not what's depicted in the books.

There was no intent to kill. It was a tragic, unforeseen side effect. Not a premeditated act.

what? terrigen wiping out mutants wasn't unforeseen effect, everybody saw what was happening to them!

anyways Pymtron already called the heroes out on all their crap, so I guess I'm not the only one that noted this...

[vitruvian]

Neither of those examples hold up to scrutiny if you're referring to the actual books.

Carol was trying to prevent potential tragedies by operating from intel from a precognitive individual. Was she wrong to do so? Arguably yes. And also arguably no. It's a debatable point, just as many real world law enforcement tactics have their defenders and detractors.

Both sides were wrong in that conflict... Tony's in proposing to do absolutely nothing about the visions and confine their bearer without cause, even though they had just helped save the world from Death Celestials, and Carol's in going beyond using the visions to head off trouble and going full Minority Report in tossing people in prison for things they hadn't done and might never do, in a clearly unlawful manner. It was especially annoying when a compromise position would have been so easy and sensible... treat the visions as a source of intel, to be confirmed if possible using other means, and if not, used as the basis for advance surveillance, but don't short circuit the legal system in terms of confining or punishing people. If the vision shows a known villain or threat about to do something, well, the vast majority of those folks that are free are out there because they broke out of jail, and so they are fugitives subject to arrest wherever found anyway. If the vision shows someone who's never been in trouble, or even that rare villain who has served their sentence and is actually out on the streets legally, hold off on actual arrests, but consider the vision probable cause to keep a close eye on them and investigate whether they're truly up to something, up to and including bringing them in for questioning, but for goodness' sake don't be throwing people into cells without access to a lawyer based solely on a vision like you learned nothing from the first Civil War.

And did the Inhumans know the effect that the Terrigen Cloud would have on mutants before they released it? No. Did they think it would only affect Inhumans? Yes.

So their intent wasn't to "gas a minority to death." They're guilty of carelessness, not malice. And it was Black Bolt's decision, not one that he gained the approval of his people to carry out in the first place.

Agreed that the release of the Terrigen clouds was initially negligence rather than malice... but it was negligence at the 'reckless disregard' level since they hadn't really tested just how safe it was for the human population as a whole, let alone mutants. We can pretty much determine this by the fact that they didn't know the impact on mutants, which any testing program would presumably have included. If they tested baseline humans and not mutants, that's more negligence, not to mention unethical experimentation on humans, considering we never saw volunteers and we know the older versions of the mists were toxic to those without Inhuman genetics. Your point that the initial release was the decision of Black Bolt and Maximus alone, not the Inhumans as a whole or especially the Nu-humans who were empowered as a result, is well taken... but in that context, let's not gloss over the fact that Black Bolt chose to detonate a flying city over the 7 million people of NYC and the damage and fatalities that resulted in.

However, once the fact that the Terrigen mists were killing mutants was discovered, the decision by the new Inhuman leadership to fight attempts by the mutants to contain or remove the mists from the atmosphere, to keep poison gas in the air, was all theirs and could reasonably be considered attempted mass murder and an act of war. By the time Medusa finally relented, that decision had resulted in a lot of actual deaths, and that's on her head and the heads of those who willingly followed her lead.

[vitruvian]

And that's not what they did.

You can claim that it is but that's not what's depicted in the books.

There was no intent to kill. It was a tragic, unforeseen side effect. Not a premeditated act.

Not the initial release, no. Fighting to keep it in the air, preventing the X-Men from removing it, just so random people around the world who had never known they had Inhuman ancestry could undergo Terrigenesis... now that was a premeditated act, and one of attempted genocide and mass murder.

[Bor]

Last time I checked Stan Lee was still alive. He's actually quite tech savvy for a 94 year old, he even predicted the rise of smartphones. Crucially though, Stan Lee remains largely above the petty politics of Marvel today. So, when I see an old man with nothing left to lose not making an ass of himself on social media I have to wonder - what exactly is wrong with Marvel's current batch of employees? These are young to middle-aged career comic book talent who can't help themselves but destroy their own livelihood at every opportunity, with each condescending tweet and Tumblr post aimed at comic book fans. It's a sad state of affairs and Marvel's employees seem unable pull themselves back from the brink.

So you dont think the man who explicitly changed speech bubbles to be more liberal was being political? Thats just flat out wrong. As others have said you clarly have not read his soapbox or letter columns at all. Nowadays Stan is an old man and not actually a full time employe from Marvel, so no you wont see stuff like that from anymore.

[Prof. Warren]

Not the initial release, no. Fighting to keep it in the air, preventing the X-Men from removing it, just so random people around the world who had never known they had Inhuman ancestry could undergo Terrigenesis... now that was a premeditated act, and one of attempted genocide and mass murder.

Is there anything on panel with an Inhuman saying that they don't care that mutants are dying? Or saying that Inhuman life is more valuable than mutants? I don't know. Maybe but I doubt it.

I'd have to go through every X-title and every Inhuman title during that time to double check and that just isn't something I'm going to spend the time on.

Point being, there were mistakes made. Grievous mistakes. But the Inhuman people as a whole certainly didn't plot the death of mutants.

None of this mutants vs Inhuman discussion, by the way, is pertinent to the thread topic. It belongs on the X-boards. Plenty of threads to discuss it on there.

As for Marvel heroes and their flaws, if you want to read about perfect people with powers, I'm sure there's fiction out there to suit you. Personally, I prefer to read about characters who are flawed, complicated, and occasionally messed up.

[Jokerz79]

So you dont think the man who explicitly changed speech bubbles to be more liberal was being political? Thats just flag out wrong. As others have said you clarly have not read his soapbox or letter columns at all. Nowadays Stan is an old man and not actually a full time employe from Marvel, so no you wont see stuff like that from anymore.

I think the difference between those days and now back then they stayed above politics and used broad strokes to tell morality tales and messages over straight up political ones.

[Jokerz79]

Is there anything on panel with an Inhuman saying that they don't care that mutants are dying? Or saying that Inhuman life is more valuable than mutants? I don't know. Maybe but I doubt it.

I'd have to go through every X-title and every Inhuman title during that time to double check and that just isn't something I'm going to spend the time on.

Point being, there were mistakes made. Grievous mistakes. But the Inhuman people as a whole certainly didn't plot the death of mutants.

None of this mutants vs Inhuman discussion, by the way, is pertinent to the thread topic. It belongs on the X-boards. Plenty of threads to discuss it on there.

As for Marvel heroes and their flaws, if you want to read about perfect people with powers, I'm sure there's fiction out there to suit you. Personally, I prefer to read about characters who are flawed, complicated, and occasionally messed up.

Beast was working on a cure for mutants while living with the Inhumans Medusa and the Royals knew the Terrigen Cloud was deadly to mutants and it was killing mutants daily. Also more mutants were dying from public fear of mutants having the M-Pox due to the Cloud and if it could effect humans. The Cloud should had been contained or destroyed but the Inhuman Royal Family wouldn't allow it and every mutant who died their blood is on their hands.

[nx01a]

While I wouldn't want to restrict anyone's right to speak on social media, I would think creators should be able to exercise better discretion by themselves. If I were a creator, I'd use social media first and foremost as a promotional tool and avoid discussion that could alienate readers. It's just a cost-benefit analysis.

This is an issue I have in my work in the media. I'm not willing to use my personal social media for any work purposes, period; they are private and I post whatever I want. Only social media handles sanctioned and curated by my company's social media staff feature any promotion I want to do regarding work-related products or events. In the case of single creators... Your official social media should remain focused on the work itself; you can do whatever you want with your private ones. It should go without saying but it seems it needs to be said that treating your fans and buyers poorly is not the best way to promote your products... but angry fans are the ones who buy comics, if I remember correctly...