Tired of Marvel's direction causing a reader civil war

[Rosebunse]

Even now you're still trying to associate negative labels with Marvel's critics. The comic fans opposing Marvel aren't traditionalists, there is perhaps very little in common between all of us except our shared concerns about the direction of Marvel as a company. In the highly polarised and toxic community that Marvel has created questioning the legitimacy of these new characters is the most radical idea in the world. That's why comic fans keep getting placed in a box labelled 'bigot' much more convenient for Marvel to ignore the problem then enact any real sense of change.

OK, really, let's be real here: has Marvel created this enviornment, or have we created this environment and it's just easier to blame it on Marvel?

Marvel is just putting out stories that are a tad-sometimes VERY- polarizing, but we're the ones freaking out about them. Doesn't help that there are real people on this board and others complaining about Marvel "villainizing" Nails and acting like old school Marvel creators didn't also create very political material.

[penthotal]

Even now you're still trying to associate negative labels with Marvel's critics. The comic fans opposing Marvel aren't traditionalists, there is perhaps very little in common between all of us except our shared concerns about the direction of Marvel as a company. In the highly polarised and toxic community that Marvel has created questioning the legitimacy of these new characters is the most radical idea in the world. That's why comic fans keep getting placed in a box labelled 'bigot' much more convenient for Marvel to ignore the problem then enact any real sense of change.

Also in August Marvel was the first publisher in units and dollars, for I don't know how many months in a row. They got 7 of the top 10 ten places. DC, despite is «hail to the classic readers» direction, slipped another little bit. Even this month, they did lose some readership and gained nothing on Marvel. The market is generally down and Marvel is in line with the market.

A vocal minority keep saying that Marvel is losing readers because it doesn't cater to them and Marvel has to change strategy because this and that, but that's not true. Even only the DM sales confirm it's not true. Even without accounting for digital, bookstores and Scholastic sales where Marvel has made big gains in the last two years thank to the new characters.

Readers like you creates the «highly polarised and toxic community» insisting on propagating lies and stating personal opinions as facts. Marvel is not ignoring a problem, because the problem doesn't exist. The "problem" is a minority of readers don't like Marvel direction. This minority is not big enough otherwise Marvel would have lost his position in the market, and it's not happening. Nether the competitor that cater to this minority (among other readers) is seeing any significant increase in sales, as stated, it's a few months their readership is shrinking.

Accept it.

[JasonTodd428]

Any way you slice it really, DC still does events better than Marvel.

Honestly, the only company's whose events I even enjoy enough to pick up the single issues of are Valiant's events, which are short and concise. For DC I only read the events in trades after they've happened. I don't care enough about Big Two events these days to bother with single issues anymore and I've felt that way about them for literally years.

[skyvolt2000]

That's why comic fans keep getting placed in a box labelled 'bigot' much more convenient for Marvel to ignore the problem then enact any real sense of change.

How can I do any real change if the main complaint only target POC, women & LGBT?

How can I improve my product when the main complainers WON'T read the books?

How can I improve when most rants never talk about story content?

How can I improve when double standards are shown? You can't have an issue with Riri in that suit if you keep giving Doom a pass. You can't rip Mosaic for sales when Solo, Fool killer, Slapstick & other white male lead book sold worst.

How can I improve when every complaint seems to be based on a preview or one scene in a book?

How can I improve anything if the traditionalist can't just say "I am not interested in Riri without a line of insults?

How can I improve when someone is more concerned with SEEING a Bruce Banner book in a story versus buying it?

There are people who show up in these threads just to defend Marvel by calling everyone who disagrees with them bigots. Can you tell the difference here?

If all you bring to the table are attacks at POC, LGBT & women-you will get called that.

The ones who don't enjoy Marvel have YET to be civil enough to explain why without a fountain of misinformation.

You can't keep crying you don't want these books around all day long and think bullying fans and employees of Marvel is going to force change.

How does going after female editors for drinking milkshakes help your cause? Saying they shouldn't be there and need to get back to the kitchen and be barefoot and pregnant.

How does giving false praise to DC help? When every single think Marvel gets attacked for can apply to them. Where fan favorites have been treated worst than Marvel favorites.

Folks defending Marvel are praising them for at least trying something different and stating the very important fact of "if you don't like it-don't read it." There is no excuse for all these threads of complaints with very little substance. as many refuse to read the books.

If POC, LGBT & women are ruining everything where are all the complaint threads in DC, Image and other places?

If Riri is offensive shouldn't Faith at Valiant be too? Rivers of London with it's black male lead now on series 5? Sex, Sex criminals, Saga, Motor Crush, Bitch Planet, Night Owl Society, ALL OF IDW, Duke Thomas, Jessica Cruz, Simon Baz, Black Wally, Future Quest, Mother Panic, Doom Patrol, Shade the Changling Girl and so many more that are doing the same thing as Marvel books.

It gets to the point of you can attack one with out going after the rest.

Because it looks like you are singling out ONE when many are guilty.

[MajorHoy]

Also in August Marvel was the first publisher in units and dollars, for I don't know how many months in a row. They got 7 of the top 10 ten places. DC, despite is «hail to the classic readers» direction, slipped another little bit. Even this month, they did lose some readership and gained nothing on Marvel. The market is generally down and Marvel is in line with the market.

A vocal minority keep saying that Marvel is losing readers because it doesn't cater to them and Marvel has to change strategy because this and that, but that's not true.

But one little caveat about the direct market "sales" figures. The numbers Diamond's charts provide are what the comic book stores order, not necessarily what the stores actually sell. So we don't know if any of those numbers are biased at all by what comic book shops are thinking customers will buy and are willing to hold onto if they don't sell as well right away. (That's probably why Batman titles sometimes seem to have such high numbers; stores may be willing to gamble on over-ordering Batman as opposed to titles that are not as well known by the general public.)

[JackDaw]

Let me state my bias more openly than I have before: in general terms I actually think Marvel's overall aim to increases diversity in its character set is a good move. I think it will be ultimately successful because it will get more people interested in super hero comics.

And I also think that Marvel is probably going about things in only way it could, if increasing diversity is not to be done at an impossibly slow rate. (We mainstream super hero fans tend to be a wee bit conservative in our reading tastes, and introducing brand new characters...and getting sufficient sales with them...is horrendously difficult. It's frustrating but, for example, the truth is that a new female version of an icon is more likely to get respectable sales than a brand new female character with no clear link to an existing icon.)

But even with that bias, I have often found remarks addressed to those with the opposite bias (i.e. those who feel Marvel's implementation of its "diversity strategy" has been poor) has quite often been profoundly insulting. Those reading the thread now should bear in mind that the thread as it now stands has been heavily redacted...and the worst of those insulting remarks have been removed.

[lowfyr]

isn't everyone an "armchair expert" on a message board? perhaps cbr should start passing out badges ..

Not everyone. Sometimes someone shows up, who knows what he or she is talking about. Most others think they know what they are talking about but are just talking nonsense.

[penthotal]

But one little caveat about the direct market "sales" figures. The numbers Diamond's charts provide are what the comic book stores order, not necessarily what the stores actually sell. So we don't know if any of those numbers are biased at all by what comic book shops are thinking customers will buy and are willing to hold onto if they don't sell as well right away. (That's probably why Batman titles sometimes seem to have such high numbers; stores may be willing to gamble on over-ordering Batman as opposed to titles that are not as well known by the general public.)

Sure, but this is not how I used the chart in my example. I was replying to someone that keep saying that Marvel sales are falling and they have to change editorial line. I pointed out how Marvel is stable and always selling more or less the same amount of books. What you say is more or less true for a single issue or a single month (it's not true for books at issue 6 or 12 because at that point retailers know how much to order of a book and be profitable, ie. not ordering too much and be left with too much unsold copies) but it's different for trends. If it was true, as someone keep saying, that Marvel is shredding readers month after month since the start of ANAD, at this point the charts would show it, right? But if Marvel keeps the same share of the market month after month, it can't be true that they are losing all these readers while retailers keeps ordering the same amount of books nobody is asking them for. Hope I have been clear.

Edit to add: we know, for example, that despite some fans calling Rebirth a huge success, they keep losing a bit of readers every month. As you can see the charts clearly show this trend:

August DC 31.09%
July DC 31.15%
June DD 31.76%
May DC 30.88%
April DC 34.34%
March DC 35.46%

[CaptCleghorn]

If people that wants classic heroes are in the majority, why in a >50 page threads like this, about 80% of the post pro classic heroes have been written by just two people? Seems a tiny obsessed vocal minority to me.

The pro-classic hero stand is held by many more than just the two posters you reference. It's just that most of the pro-classic side realize that Steve, Tony, Don, and Bruce are coming back and that they always were going to be coming back. They're just OK with the current storyline.

[Jaddor]

Sure, but this is not how I used the chart in my example. I was replying to someone that keep saying that Marvel sales are falling and they have to change editorial line. I pointed out how Marvel is stable and always selling more or less the same amount of books. What you say is more or less true for a single issue or a single month (it's not true for books at issue 6 or 12 because at that point retailers know how much to order of a book and be profitable, ie. not ordering too much and be left with too much unsold copies) but it's different for trends. If it was true, as someone keep saying, that Marvel is shredding readers month after month since the start of ANAD, at this point the charts would show it, right? But if Marvel keeps the same share of the market month after month, it can't be true that they are losing all these readers while retailers keeps ordering the same amount of books nobody is asking them for. Hope I have been clear.

Edit to add: we know, for example, that despite some fans calling Rebirth a huge success, they keep losing a bit of readers every month. As you can see the charts clearly show this trend:

August DC 31.09%
July DC 31.15%
June DD 31.76%
May DC 30.88%
April DC 34.34%
March DC 35.46%

do you know the sad thing? marvel was beating DC on a regular basis before all the MCU disney drama. mcu disney is the worst thing that ever happened to marvel, this has been proven in the long run. for thier comics,for their movies, for thier games for their tv shows and for their cartoons.

DC RULES. since dc can learn from mistakes and are not destroying their most iconic IPs to spite a studio (fox) that dont give a ****.

[Sunday]

marvel's main problem is very much a writing one at the core of everything. You don't see people bitch about DC's LGBT characters en masse like people do for Marvel because, unlike Marvel, the majority of DC's LGBT characters are written well compared to crap like America and Iceman. Marvel's past, what, 7 events have been widely panned because they were all just bad on every conceivable level. Before any pandering to the LGBT or minorities, before any attempts to appease the old and busted readers, before anything Marvel needs to improve their writing. Without competent writing everything Marvel does will be terrible

[Redjack]

I'm participating for two reasons.

1) There's a LOT of negativity pointed towards CREATORS based upon either false or faulty knowledge of what happens backstage and how decisions are made at Marvel editorial. Nearly nothing that has been posited by the detractors is true. As I'm in a position to know that, for sure, I felt there might be some positive ripple effect if i posted "insider info" to counteract the crap fest.

2) On the internet, if enough people believe and chatter back and forth about a lie, even though the lie isn't true, they can build up enough junk data to perpetuate ugly feelings. This needs to stop. That's it. It needs to stop.

The very idea that Marvel or ANY entertainment company is taking a hostile attitude to its fans is ludicrous. The idea that Marvel is somehow MORE Left-political now than its been in its past is not only ludicrous, it's ahistorical. One can literally go look and see the actual comics that put the lie to this. The idea that Marvel is losing a significant amount of readers due to its "SJW" stance is false. Math and those numbers we can access prove that this is false. That's not a matter of opinion or argument; it's simply not so. The idea that Marvel is or is planning to destroy the X Line "in favor" of the Inhumans is also completely false and completely ridiculous. Entertainment companies simply do not attack their fans. At worst, they sometimes make business decisions that some or many fans don't like. This is constant, of course. There is never a time when 100% of the fans are 100% happy with the product line. Never.

Normally it doesn't matter what we argue about as fans- which Hulk is "better," why DC's heroes are "superior" to Marvel's or vice versa, is "Bendis" the king this week or the worst ever, etc. –but there is something really toxic at work in this current conversation for the reasons outlined by many in this thread and hosts of others.

There is a CLEAR underlying and often STATED bias against "diversity" characters and stories that has nothing to do with their "newness" or the "organic" nature of their creation. It is clearly expressed in the words used by the detractors and it is what elicits the "wow, are you a bigot or what?" response. It makes no difference if the given poster yells that they're not a bigot when, in every post they express, very clearly, bigoted opinions and desires.

To be clear: NO ONE on this side is against the continued existence of "classic" heroes. We just don't care when they are "replaced" momentarily to present a new twist on an old theme. The market dictates which of those twists become "permanent," not us arguing here. The market likes Jane as Thor and, apparently likes Riri as Iron Heart (a stupid name change that IS an example of the company caving to stupid fans IMO). We know this because of the sales numbers to which we do have access. Marvel and other data sources say Moon Girl is killing in markets outside the DM. Ditto Ms Marvel. Captain Marvel's sales are, I guess, less than stellar but Marvel has, y'know, a movie coming out so don't hold your breath about that book getting cancelled and don't compare its condition to any other books. This is new territory, the movie thing, and it creates new paradigms here and there. Disney does NOT micromanage Marvel comics or Marvel films or Marvel TV. That's not how they roll. In general, when a GIANT company acquires a SMALLER company, they don't start making massive changes to the way the smaller company runs because it's what the smaller company was doing that made it attractive to absorb in the first place. All this stuff is basic and its all factual.

We "minority" readers have spent decades reading about ourselves as sidekicks for the most part or not seeing ourselves at all or, worst, being shown as ugly stereotypes (just go look up Extrano from DC for one brutal example). Lately both companies have in their own ways tried to course correct for that and this has created backlash from some quarters. But the backlash is not legitimate. The backlash is due to racism, sexism, homophobia and, amazingly, a bit of jingoism around the edges.

Well? Screw that. I, as a creator, don't want that business. I'm pretty sure Marvel and DC don't want to be associated visibly with that crowd either, not necessarily for moral reasons (although I hope it's their morality) but because it's bad for business.

If some feel "judged" or "attacked" by these companies taking these fairly soft stances, I submit it isn't the companies but the entire society around you that is judging you this way. There may be a good reason for that which might be worth being brave enough to explore.

[Materiel]

As always (as a profound lurker on these forums, most of the time) I am mystified that this discussion goes on for this long. If I don't like something, I don't read it. I didn't like X-Men Gold at all, so I dropped it. It's the only book I'd go as far to say is actually bad. Invincible Iron Man was not for me, I dropped it. If you don't like it, don't read it. That is the BEST way to send a message to anything involving money. STOP buying it.

However, if you stop buying the book and the sentiment you have for said book is shared by others and it doesn't affect sales enough to effect change, then you have to swallow the bitter pill and deal with it. Put your dollars somewhere else, there are a lot of comics there. I've taken to stocking my shelves with some image deluxe hardcovers and DC Comics Rebirth deluxe editions. (I still pick up Iron Fist, X-Men Blue, Daredevil, Generation X and Defenders)

Randomly: I think Marvel should drop the price of (certain) first trades to $10 bucks (like Image). Those comixology/amazon sales help tremendously, but I don't check the app or store everyday. Comixology has a sale right now putting most trade/volumes at 4-6 bucks.

[Redjack]

As always (as a profound lurker on these forums, most of the time) I am mystified that this discussion goes on for this long. If I don't like something, I don't read it. I didn't like X-Men Gold at all, so I dropped it. It's the only book I'd go as far to say is actually bad. Invincible Iron Man was not for me, I dropped it. If you don't like it, don't read it. That is the BEST way to send a message to anything involving money. STOP buying it.

However, if you stop buying the book and the sentiment you have for said book is shared by others and it doesn't affect sales enough to effect change, then you have to swallow the bitter pill and deal with it. Put your dollars somewhere else, there are a lot of comics there. I've taken to stocking my shelves with some image deluxe hardcovers and DC Comics Rebirth deluxe editions. (I still pick up Iron Fist, X-Men Blue, Daredevil, Generation X and Defenders)

Randomly: I think Marvel should drop the price of (certain) first trades to $10 bucks (like Image). Those comixology/amazon sales help tremendously, but I don't check the app or store everyday. Comixology has a sale right now putting most trade/volumes at 4-6 bucks.

yep.



,,,,,,

[Bor]

do you know the sad thing? marvel was beating DC on a regular basis before all the MCU disney drama. mcu disney is the worst thing that ever happened to marvel, this has been proven in the long run. for thier comics,for their movies, for thier games for their tv shows and for their cartoons.

DC RULES. since dc can learn from mistakes and are not destroying their most iconic IPs to spite a studio (fox) that dont give a ****.

Yet despite this Marvel beats DC in comics sales and by far in box offices for years. DC might have more succesful tv shows, but Marvel has most of the other things.