Tired of Marvel's direction causing a reader civil war

[MajorHoy]

Steve Rogers is back and will be the sole Captain America again, with Sam being demoted back to being Falcon. (And hey, I hope all you people who bitched about how they should promote Sam as Falcon plan on picking that up!) . . .

How is being the Falcon a demotion? Sam Wilson as the Falcon is a cool and unique character, . . .

I agree that Sam going back to "just Falcon" is not a demotion. He had a truly unique identity for years, and it's not as if he even really wanted the "Captain America" title in the first place, did he?
Had he spent years and years training with Cap in hopes of being "the next Captain America"?

[Tiamatty]

How is being the Falcon a demotion? Sam Wilson as the Falcon is a cool and unique character, and yes I intend to pick up his book now that he's regained his uniqueness.

And Pak telling a very specific story about Cho is of small comfort for those who would like to read about Banner. Why does telling Chulk's story require having Banner dead? Why does telling Riri's story require having Stark in a coma?

Pak's story didn't require Banner be dead. That wasn't Pak's decision. I suspect he probably did intend to have Banner pop up fairly regularly. But Pak's story did require that Banner not be the Hulk any more. Either way, it was another finite story, with every intention of Banner going back to being the Hulk at the end. With Riri, I have a hunch that Bendis didn't originally plan the coma, but decided, while writing CWII, that the story should end with something happening to Stark. I could be wrong, but that's my guess.

[DragonsChi]

You're right when you say there's no reason that the old heroes and the new heroes can't co-exist. Thing is, the old heroes were never going to be gone for good in the first place. Most of them have been replaced (or even died) before and they always come back.

Everyone knew they where coming back. I think what caused or is causing the hostility is that they never need to be thrown into limbo in the first place.

[DragonsChi]

Yep.

I think one problem fans have is that they don't really listen to one another. I'm sorry but it's true. When I hear someone say: "I like Ms. Marvel" I understand that they like the character, not that they're saying "f*ck Carol Danvers". When people say: "I want to read about Thor" they don't necessarily mean "I hate Jane-Thor" or worse "I hate diversity".

If people paid more attention to what others are saying and less time trying to find a hidden message or meaning to their posts, I think everybody would be a lot happier. Well, that's my two cents

Gwaaad this so much! Some people just thrive off of lables and discord. It must be exhausting trying to find enemies in every conversation.

[Rogue Star]

Everyone knew they where coming back. I think what caused or is causing the hostility is that they never need to be thrown into limbo in the first place.

Mmmm. In my opinion, the hostility comes from the online bullying that comes from people who want to shut up people who criticize Marvel's management. People can only take so much of being libeled, slandered and treated like human scum.

[ed2962]

Everyone knew they where coming back. I think what caused or is causing the hostility is that they never need to be thrown into limbo in the first place.

But this as been a Marvel superhero trope since at least the 80's. There's really no difference between John taking over for Steve and Sam taking over. James took over over Tony, but when Riri ( and Vic Von Doom) does it's a Marvel "forcing" something on fans?

[pageturner]

To quote the great states people of our time

Haters gonna hate hate hate

[Mah VM]

Everyone knew they where coming back. I think what caused or is causing the hostility is that they never need to be thrown into limbo in the first place.

Well, I've grown up knowing and being forced to accept that the LGBT characters I loved spent more time in limbo than in the pages of the comics I bought, yet I hoped and waited and was happy to see them whenever a writer remembered them and decided to give them a couple of panels or a storyline. So it's hard for me to empathize with people who's favourite characters are the likes of Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Bruce Banner and Logan (who've consistently been front and center in every story writers could put them and had their own solos) throwing a fit because after 40+ years of hogging the spotlight their faves had to spent months or a couple of years in limbo, so writers could use their massive spotlight (built during the years where women, POC and LGBT characters were kept as supporting cast and sidekicks) to build up new interesting characters, while knowing they'll come back anyway.

It's like hearing a spoiled rich child throwing a tantrum because they lost one of their many expensive toys when there are many poor kids out there that have nothing.

[Mary Jay]

But this as been a Marvel superhero trope since at least the 80's. There's really no difference between John taking over for Steve and Sam taking over. James took over over Tony, but when Riri ( and Vic Von Doom) does it's a Marvel "forcing" something on fans?

I don't think it's the problem of one person taking over. This has been done before. It just started to get fishy to some when several (like all the founding Avengers) got replaced within a shorter period of time. In the last few years, maybe three at the most, there's been a new Cap, a new Thor, a new Giant-Man, a new Iron Man (plus Riri), a new Wasp, a new Hulk... and that's just the founding Avengers. I find it hard to believe it's all a coincidence.

[dragonmp93]

Yep.

I think one problem fans have is that they don't really listen to one another. I'm sorry but it's true. When I hear someone say: "I like Ms. Marvel" I understand that they like the character, not that they're saying "f*ck Carol Danvers". When people say: "I want to read about Thor" they don't necessarily mean "I hate Jane-Thor" or worse "I hate diversity".

If people paid more attention to what others are saying and less time trying to find a hidden message or meaning to their posts, I think everybody would be a lot happier. Well, that's my two cents

Nah, when you say that you like "Ms Marvel", unless you are talking about Kamala, what you are saying is that you are a sexist "#$%&/(/.

Gwaaad this so much! Some people just thrive off of lables and discord. It must be exhausting trying to find enemies in every conversation.

Have you ever been in Tumblr ?. That place runs on that, funny gifs and thirst.

[Frontier]

Jane's story was always a finite one and I'm sure Bro-Thor will be the sole Thor again at that point.

I appreciate that you still call him Thor .

Clint and Kate have co-existed for years, even if the current Hawkeye series is specifically about Kate. (I'm sure that, when Thompson's run is finished, the series will be re-launched with the pair teamed up again.)

I'm still not convinced that they co-exist well, at least when paired together. It seems fine when they're in different books and Clint's not written by Brian Michael Bendis.

But that goes for any legacy mantle at this point with how Marvel has handled things.

[JoeWithoutFear]

I'm tired of the war. I'm tired of the readership being divided and taking these fictional things seriously and personal. I'm tired of, "If you do not support minorities taking this mantle, you are a terrible person and likely phobic of the minority."

Why not just have ALL Legacy and Classic characters co-exist and EACH have their own book? Don't create an ultimatum of replacing someone and forcing the classic lovers out and enforcing the Legacy ones. I just want this to end. Every Marvel topic regresses into the same old topic of people supporting or hating the direction. The bad part of this civil war is: no one really wins, it's just people arguing in circles.

Here here! Well said! Room enough for everyone! Let's stop treating comic books like avatars for our politics. Let's treat them more like... comic books. Y'know, something we can all enjoy and come together over instead of drive people apart.

[ed2962]

I don't think it's the problem of one person taking over. This has been done before. It just started to get fishy to some when several (like all the founding Avengers) got replaced within a shorter period of time. In the last few years, maybe three at the most, there's been a new Cap, a new Thor, a new Giant-Man, a new Iron Man (plus Riri), a new Wasp, a new Hulk... and that's just the founding Avengers. I find it hard to believe it's all a coincidence.

But what's fishy about it? It's obviously Marvel shaking thing up just like they did 30 years ago and 20 years ago and even ten years ago. Again go back to the first Secret Wars series...James was already IM when it started, when it ended She Hulk was in the FF, Spidey had a black suit, Doom had a nice face, a year later Walker was the new Cap, etc

[regg215]

I do think that fan disagreements have gotten out of hand, as pretty much every argument about this issue turns into people alleging that one side is racist/sexist/homophobic etc.. With my favorite marvel character being thor, I was certainly not happy when marvel decided to basically bench the character, I know he has had a ton of stories over the years and I can always go back and read the old one but it still sucked to basically have my favorite character no longer appear in many stories and turned into a depressed drunkard who didn't even believe he was worthy of his own name when he did. In addition once the comic started going out of it's way to state that Jane was better in every possible way than Odinson was, that didn't exactly sit well with me as it basically seemed like the comic was going out of it's way to troll fans of odinson. With him being my favorite character anyone replacing him would have been disappointing, if Marvel had decided to make my second favorite character (Matt Murdock) take his place I would have been angry because at the end of the day he isn't Thor Odinson. I had no particular hatred of Jane Foster, honestly as a Thor Fan I have always liked Jane but I was not happy she replaced Odinson, and yet any conversation online about this a lot of people essentially took the opinion that the only possible reason I would be upset by Jane Thor was because I was a sexist, who didn't believe that women should be in comics. I have seen the same thing happen to a lot of other fans who like Steve Rogers, Bruce Banner, Logan, Clint Barton etc. There are a lot of fans who were not thrilled to see their favorite or one of their favorite characters killed off, replaced, turned evil etc.

With that being said fans of the classic characters are equally responsible for the disagreements that have happened because a great deal of them, end up making stupid statements that are clearly based on racism/sexism etc. Some of the same fans who complain about Steve, Tony or Bruce being replaced, will act like they are just mad that the character is being replaced but then end up making ridiculous complaints abut the replacement characters and complain about the existence of books like America, Moon girl, Unstoppable Wasp as part of their complaints. Those books have absolutely nothing to do with why some classic characters are being replaced and complaining about their existence is ridiculous, if you don't like it don't buy it.

Overall it is pretty sad that marvel fans in particular right now can't really have civil arguments about stuff anymore because it always seems to end up in arguments that essentially boil down to name calling etc. Not every fan who is mad that Steve Rogers got replaced is a racist and not every person who likes Sam as Cap has some agenda against white males, but right now it kinda seems like marvel comic fans can't have any discussion about Captain America without it turning into a fight over that and the same is true of a lot of characters right now. It just seems sad that we really don't seem to as marvel fans discuss actually quality of stories or plot because we are too busy trying to turn everyone who disagree on stuff like this into the bad guy. I think that is one of the reason I sort of like DC more right now is because the majority of fans on DC boards seem to be able to talk about topics without almost every discussion turning into a fight. Part of why I really love comics is going on boards and seeing fan reaction and discussing how other fans saw and reacted to things, with marvel comics right now that is really missing because fans are too busy arguing and trashing other fans who don't agree with them and making deeply personal statements about the person's character/morals etc.

[ed2962]

Here here! Well said! Room enough for everyone! Let's stop treating comic books like avatars for our politics. Let's treat them more like... comic books. Y'know, something we can all enjoy and come together over instead of drive people apart.

Stan Lee had no problem using comics as an avatar for his politics...