Tired of Marvel's direction causing a reader civil war

[dragonmp93]

Very true.

I don't actually post or start threads as much as I did before because of the toxicity that's crept into fandom.

I mean, people get triggered by t-shirts or a woman posting a milkshake with her friends.

Well, people also get triggered when you say that DisMarvel has a preference towards MCU franchises.

[JackDaw]

I'm just hearing about "virtue signaling" for the first time.

I never even knew it was a thing.

It is.

To be fair its like lots of things: more people are accused of it, rather than being guilty of it.

But certainly some proponents of the art (of virtue signalling) can be profoundly irritating. Think something like: major star...wants government to pursue a load of initiatives that will spend tax payers money..and constantly uses media to sound off on issues...liberal on everything subject under sun. But at same time uses tax management specialists to pay minimum tax themselves, and sends kids to private schools....in effect somebody who wants to appear saintly, while at all times determiningly following self interest.

[Rogue Star]

I'm just hearing about "virtue signaling" for the first time.

I never even knew it was a thing.

Just in case you still aren't sure what it is I'll provide you with the definition and Wikipedia entry.

Virtue Signaling:
noun
the action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.


Some people take exception to the mere use of "virtue signaling" now. But anyone can be guilty of it. People in church can be guilty of it (happens a lot among Christians). It's not derogatory so it shouldn't be demonized, regardless of what people may perceive as the motive behind its use in a particular instance. It's just one of those things.


From Wikipedia

"Virtue signalling is the conspicuous expression of moral values done primarily with the intent of enhancing standing within a social group. The term was first used in signalling theory, to describe any behavior that could be used to signal virtue—especially piety among the religious. Since 2015, the term has become more commonly used as a pejorative characterization by commentators to criticize what they regard as the platitudinous, empty, or superficial support of certain political views, and also used within groups to criticize their own members for valuing outward appearance over substantive action. This more recent usage of the term has been criticized for misusing the concept of signalling and encouraging lazy thinking."

[Username taken]

Well, people also get triggered when you say that DisMarvel has a preference towards MCU franchises.

Why should anyone get triggered by that when it's true?

It's something that Marvel themselves have confirmed.

[Bor]

Why should anyone get triggered by that when it's true?

It's something that Marvel themselves have confirmed.

No one is triggered by that, the problem is that a lot of posters claim that Marvel on purpose do not want to promote or publish anything not MCU which is completely false.
A perfect example with the legacy promotion: A couple of posters kept on saying that there was a lack of non MCau characters despite several X-men characters and ome FF appeared in it.
The x-men has had plenty of events and promotion but aparently to wome people Marvel do not want to publish them at all. Because they dont want to make money or something?

[Redjack]

The hatred for Secret Empire is bigger than YouTube, even the normally Marvel friendly news websites have all been releasing detailed autopsy articles on why they think Secret Empire failed so spectacularly. This is of course to nothing about what happened when Marvel unveiled the Legacy/Generations plans a couple of months ago, the backlash after Marvel promised to 'change the industry forever' was both widespread and immediate. To elaborate on what I said in my last post, I'm not going to question the talent of Marvel's creative team but at this point it's safe to say that they are no longer giving their best effort when it comes to new comics. Because right now Marvel is not operating at 100%.

No. it's not "safe to say" that. It's vicious and mean-spirited and comes from a place of total ignorance. You don't know these people. You don't know what their best effort is or is not. And you don't speak for "the fans."

[KingsLeadHat]

I do feel that certain readers are mistakenly perceiving the decline of the LCS (that's really what we're talking about here) as being equivalent to the decline of mainstream comics. Trades sales continue to be strong, and as far as I know, they continue to grow by the year. It's also clear that this market is far more diverse than the LCS crowd and consists of far more females and minorities.

You also have the fact that Marvel and DC are basically going through a digital transition, somewhat akin to how we're slowly weening ourselves off of inferior and regressive gasoline powered vehicles. I only buy new comics in digital format and my hope is that as the LCS system fades, we can return to a more disposable price-point for new digital comics, which in turn would simulate the newstand/spinner-rack impulse buys of old.

[leo619]

The comic industry as a whole has been failing, in large part, due to marketing. Marvel's failures are twofold. Poor marketing and poor writing. They fail to tap into the mass interest in their classic characters, while also failing to make any quality stories to retain their current readership. As a company, Marvel's business model is failing to attract new readers to them or the industry. This is most troubling when considering they are the face of said industry. Most new readers end up going through Marvel before DC, and Marvel's current lineup has not yet failed to disappoint.

There is a difference between advertising and marketing. Although advertising plays a part in marketing, there is much more to it. It's not enough for a couple characters to appear in some big name titles. They have to be intriguing. Obviously, this was not the case.

My analogy you're referring to was in regards to your accusations that it is somehow the audience's fault that stories involving diverse characters failed. You're blaming the audience for something that was not their fault.

Completely disagree, the industry is failing because of pricing and the direct market, and the direct market cannot continue to move with just sole reliance on the classic readership. This is why Marve madel such a change, and why DC after stating the direct market is crashing, is trying to push out the dark matter titles. It has nothing to do with poor writing, because many of the books that are "supposedly" bad are also award winners. If classic readership was the key, DC would still be beating Marvel to this day with Rebirth. But as stated before, just like with New 52, DC started off strong, and ended going back to very similar numbers to where they were before. So they key to success has absolutely nothing to do with classic readership. The key to success is to get out of the direct market, dedicate more resources to the digital area, drop the freaking prices of their comics, and continue to reach the general audience with a combination of both their classic characters AND their diverse characters. As their diverse characters have already started providing more of a balance necessary to the current comic book audience.

And once again, you analogy makes no sense. The only way your analogy would work is for the readership to have picked up the book and then seen gigantic drop of sales after reading the first issues. That was not the case. The sales started off low, and then eventually was cancelled as the few who decided to pick it up couldn't maintain them in their pull list. So the actor can't be mad for giving a crappy performance, but the actor can be mad for people not willing to give his performance a look in the first place. That second example is an analogy that actually makes sense.

[Drops Of Venus]

No one is triggered by that, the problem is that a lot of posters claim that Marvel on purpose do not want to promote or publish anything not MCU which is completely false.
A perfect example with the legacy promotion: A couple of posters kept on saying that there was a lack of non MCau characters despite several X-men characters and ome FF appeared in it.
The x-men has had plenty of events and promotion but aparently to wome people Marvel do not want to publish them at all. Because they dont want to make money or something?

Yeah, honestly, I was taken aback by some guy on another thread bashing the Legacy poster because ''it had no X-Men/FF characters'' WHEN THEY WERE RIGHT THERE. It's like people get literally blind by their own hate.

[dragonmp93]

Yeah, honestly, I was taken aback by some guy on another thread bashing the Legacy poster because ''it had no X-Men/FF characters'' WHEN THEY WERE RIGHT THERE. It's like people get literally blind by their own hate.

Jean is missing from half of the posters. And Laura is not in the photorealistic one.

[Drops Of Venus]

Jean is missing from half of the posters. And Laura is not in the photorealistic one.

I was talking about this specific image:

[JackDaw]

I do feel that certain readers are mistakenly perceiving the decline of the LCS (that's really what we're talking about here) as being equivalent to the decline of mainstream comics. Trades sales continue to be strong, and as far as I know, they continue to grow by the year. It's also clear that this market is far more diverse than the LCS crowd and consists of far more females and minorities.

You also have the fact that Marvel and DC are basically going through a digital transition, somewhat akin to how we're slowly weening ourselves off of inferior and regressive gasoline powered vehicles. I only buy new comics in digital format and my hope is that as the LCS system fades, we can return to a more disposable price-point for new digital comics, which in turn would simulate the newstand/spinner-rack impulse buys of old.

You're surely right to suggest that decline of physical LCS is no indicator any more of whether sales are going up or down. It's just becoming another one of those areas where physical shops struggle to compete, regardless of product sales. High street rents and rates, etc make it really difficult to compete with digital, or just central warehouse type of set-ups.

Your "dream" (of really cheap digital comics) would be marvellous. And..in some ways...with Marvel Unlimited and the weekly comixology sales, we're already some way there. I've almost got to point where I may only buy one or two physical runs in years to come...I'll probably buy John Ostrander's Grimjack at some point if it doesn't become available digitally, and a few other odds and ends.

The other thing that may eventually revolutionise comics might be creation of software to allow writers to quickly and cheaply do their own artwork.

[Bor]

Yeah, honestly, I was taken aback by some guy on another thread bashing the Legacy poster because ''it had no X-Men/FF characters'' WHEN THEY WERE RIGHT THERE. It's like people get literally blind by their own hate.

That was exactly what I was thinking of. Oh I do have to correct myself though, there were not one but two FF members.

[dragonmp93]

I was talking about this specific image:

That was exactly what I was thinking of. Oh I do have to correct myself though, there were not one but two FF members.

And i was talking about in general.

[Bor]

And i was talking about in general.

And in general you are still wrong.