Tired of Marvel's direction causing a reader civil war

[CaptCleghorn]

There is nothing wrong with nostalgia. We're entitled to like something from our past and want to see more of it. Not wanting to dealing with or accepting new stories or ideas is the problem. Life moves on; faster than some would like, not as fast as others would like.

[Mary Jay]

if the shoe doesn't fit why are you trying to wear it?

because I have been accused of "nostalgia" several times in these threads.

And because a lot of the people accused of the same thing share my description (reading for the first time, not born back then, no attachment to the time period).

[Redjack]

There is nothing wrong with nostalgia. We're entitled to like something from our past and want to see more of it. Not wanting to dealing with or accepting new stories or ideas is the problem. Life moves on; faster than some would like, not as fast as others would like.

let me rephrase:

Toxic Nostalgia = Death.

[Redjack]

because I have been accused of "nostalgia" several times in these threads.

not by me.

[Xalfrea]

There is nothing wrong with nostalgia. We're entitled to like something from our past and want to see more of it. Not wanting to dealing with or accepting new stories or ideas is the problem. Life moves on; faster than some would like, not as fast as others would like.

Much as I dislike nostalgia in a personal level, this is true. It's up to people themselves to not be controlled by the nostalgia to the point of blindly hating everything new and becoming this:

[AquaLantern]

let me rephrase:

Toxic Nostalgia = Death.

True. As much as I like The Force Awakens I have no problem saying making everything like the beginning of Episode IV unnecessary.

You don't need neary extinct Jedi and another freaking Death Star to make a good Star Wars film.

Also I feel there's another reader civil war Marvel should own up to instigating.

[majormcmeat]

There is nothing wrong with nostalgia. We're entitled to like something from our past and want to see more of it. Not wanting to dealing with or accepting new stories or ideas is the problem. Life moves on; faster than some would like, not as fast as others would like.

Sure, but there's nothing really wrong with not generally giving a **** about these new characters/stories, particularly since they're only really "new" at a surface level.

I think part of it is that nostalgia is built into the industry.
Two companies make up the majority, and they publish superhero comics almost exclusively. There's very little diversity of storytelling there, so why wouldn't people just stick to their preferred superheroes?
Sure you get the odd comedy book, or slice-of-life or whatever, but it's mostly quasi-dramatic action stories. And it's all built on that superhero frame.
When the new stuff is so frequently "it's like that thing you like, but with a twist," it's pretty understandable that some people would rather go without the twist.
"Spider-Man, but he's a teenager again and also black" isn't so different from "Superman, but he's blue with electricity powers."

None of this really makes anyone a bad person, despite what some others might like to believe.

[ed2962]

A film that introduced new characters for a new generation in the form of Rey and Finn - a move which enraged some older fans who thought the movie was catering to women and minorities and ignoring the "real fans" who "made Star Wars what it is" in favor of "SJW's." It enraged these fans to the point where they called for a boycott of the film - even though the SW universe had always been a progressive place and the new characters weren't a threat to the old ones.

Any of this sound oddly familiar?

Well... outside of Leia being portrayed as a feisty chick as opposed to damsel in distress, I don't know if Star Wars was all that progressive.

[jackolover]

No, that's not it at all. We just want to see the comics better reflect the world as it is now rather than in the 60's. Times have changed, and the books should acknowledge that. Marvel is all about 'the world outside your window' so it should actually resemble that world. Give people besides white guys characters to read about who they can identify with a bit more, (and before anyone says it, I am not saying people can't read about a character who doesn't exactly represent like themselves. I've got plenty characters I like that don't 'represent' me. But at the same time to have your race, gender, sexuality etc. conspicuously absent from the major players does tend to grate after a while) or just generally better represent the world as it is now. There is nothing wrong with the originals if you look at them in a vacuum, but they don't exist in a vacuum, they exist in a shared universe that is outdated and needs an update, and that update can't just happen on the fringes. And has been noted, it was obvious the replacements were never intended to be permanent, but it did help increase their prominence and get them a better shot at becoming major players than introducing them in some team somewhere and hoping that 10, 20 years down the line they may be able to carry their own book. Though Marvel is doing that as well.

I too was sick of these threads, so I had just sworn them off cus they just go around in circles, but I just had to let my curiosity get the better of me... :-/

So the new diversity characters are not supposed to represent better super heroes than the classic white dominated heroes.

I can see a trend showing the classic super heroes in a very unflattering light. The Illuminati (the best of them) ruining the world by giving the Skrulls an opportunity to attack, causing Dark Reign, where the POTUS couldn't find one good man to lead Security, so he picked a super villain. Fury disobeyed the POTUS and assassinated the Latverian Prime Minister, the FF were ransacked for trying to defuse Latverian Tech, the Avengers killed themselves, because they had members who were nuts, and made mutants evaporate, the Government scared the Illuminati into sending the Hulk into space, and made Tony Stark betray his own kind. It goes on and on, showing the Illuminati betray and disrespect themselves right up to Secret Wars. Thor and Hyperion were shadows of themselves.

I suppose the diversity heroes have it good, in that they haven't been around long enough to make these kinds of mistakes, so give them time and they will be just as bad as the classics. But as of right now, the diversity are looking pretty ethical and self-assured compared to the classic heroes. Is that deliberate?

[dzub]

Much as I dislike nostalgia in a personal level, this is true. It's up to people themselves to not be controlled by the nostalgia to the point of blindly hating everything new and becoming this:

Change is good, i don't miss my favourite character's signature green briefs

Well... outside of Leia being portrayed as a feisty chick as opposed to damsel in distress, I don't know if Star Wars was all that progressive.

Well Vader is disabled but was potrayed as an all around bad ass

[jackolover]

Of course that's not the character's fault, there are great characters who were created then many of whom were mentioned in the thread already, but they did benefit from years front and center during the era where comics sold way more than they did today and Marvel invested a lot in them exclusively for a long time, and that's how they built their popularity.

That doesn't mean the characters are flawed or inferior and/or should be killed off permanently or kept in supporting cast positions forever, but it does make it hard to care about fans of said characters creating dozens of threads and derailing dozens of others because a character they have 40+ years worth of stories to read about has been temporarily removed from their spoitlight in order to give a new character a chance.

It makes it hard to sympathise with diversity supporters who have no empathy for classic supporters too.

[ed2962]

Change is good, i don't miss my favourite character's signature green briefs

Well Vader is disabled but was potrayed as an all around bad ass

His disability was used to make him scary!

[Raye]

So the new diversity characters are not supposed to represent better super heroes than the classic white dominated heroes.

I can see a trend showing the classic super heroes in a very unflattering light. The Illuminati (the best of them) ruining the world by giving the Skrulls an opportunity to attack, causing Dark Reign, where the POTUS couldn't find one good man to lead Security, so he picked a super villain. Fury disobeyed the POTUS and assassinated the Latverian Prime Minister, the FF were ransacked for trying to defuse Latverian Tech, the Avengers killed themselves, because they had members who were nuts, and made mutants evaporate, the Government scared the Illuminati into sending the Hulk into space, and made Tony Stark betray his own kind. It goes on and on, showing the Illuminati betray and disrespect themselves right up to Secret Wars. Thor and Hyperion were shadows of themselves.

I suppose the diversity heroes have it good, in that they haven't been around long enough to make these kinds of mistakes, so give them time and they will be just as bad as the classics. But as of right now, the diversity are looking pretty ethical and self-assured compared to the classic heroes. Is that deliberate?

I think it is deliberate in that they are trying to make the characters stumble, and create dramatic stories that go beyond fighting interchangeable villains who want to wreck **** for.... reasons. Exploring things like if the ends justify the means and where we should draw the line in the face of a problem with no good solution with the incursions, or how easily fascism can creep in, with Secret Empire. These kinds of stories require the characters to stumble. It's in service of the story, not in an attempt to prop up the newer characters. And damn right, the newer characters will stumble too, given enough time, and they absolutely should. I can think of a number of mistakes the newer crowd have made already, or just general character flaws. Ms Marvel and how she blindly followed Carol even when she didn't agree, and it got Bruno hurt and drove him away, for instance, and she has been getting more rigid and inflexible since then as a result, overcompensating in the other direction. Chulk is a giant green ball of assorted character flaws. Jane as Thor is stubborn, cocky, quick to fight and judgemental. Moon Girl is extremely arrogant. Redjack, as he is obviously the expert on this one, outlined a laundry list of character flaws for Mosaic elsewhere in this thread. etc. But I don't think this is a bad thing. Marvel has always been about flawed characters, this is nothing new. It's just continuing that trend, though yeah, probably getting a darker as time goes on. But I have liked the themes they explore, and I personally don't like characters to be too squeaky clean and perfect, so I don't have a problem with it. Sure, I like characters to try and be better, usually, (though a heel turn can be cool too, if done well) but they can't strive to be better if they are perfect already. They can't learn from mistakes if they make none.

[dragonmp93]

You know, i wonder what i would have happened if the Captain Hydra was Sam instead of Steve.

[leo619]

Sure, but there's nothing really wrong with not generally giving a **** about these new characters/stories, particularly since they're only really "new" at a surface level.

I think part of it is that nostalgia is built into the industry.
Two companies make up the majority, and they publish superhero comics almost exclusively. There's very little diversity of storytelling there, so why wouldn't people just stick to their preferred superheroes?
Sure you get the odd comedy book, or slice-of-life or whatever, but it's mostly quasi-dramatic action stories. And it's all built on that superhero frame.
When the new stuff is so frequently "it's like that thing you like, but with a twist," it's pretty understandable that some people would rather go without the twist.
"Spider-Man, but he's a teenager again and also black" isn't so different from "Superman, but he's blue with electricity powers."

None of this really makes anyone a bad person, despite what some others might like to believe.

Except the last part does make someone a bad person for wishing that character didn't exist (without the twist), because by wishing said character doesn't exist, you're taking away representation for a demographic that is already shortchanged in society (which is essentially anyone not white, straight male) Of course if that realization is never placed upon that person than that's a different story, but once that realization is there, and yet they still have a problem with it, that's when it does make them a bad person, "despite what others might like to believe."