2017 NFL Season Thread

[HowitzerJoe]

To be honest Montana wasn't some athletic god either. In fact Montana had issues locking on WR's , was considered lanky as well. What made Walsh select him was more on the fact the 49ers went to look at the RB who was working out and Montana impressed Walsh with his quick feet. Not his arm , as Walsh claims in Joe's autobiography , he has quick Namath style feet and could do a drop back quicky. But Montana himself didn't have a strong arm , in fact the WCO is more dictated on reads and smart quick throws. A fact Alex Smith runs it so well because Reid claims its about "reading that defense.."

I didn't say he was. But it's obvious that he could his legs when he had to and wouldn't look like a snail. A good example of this is when he burned the Giants defense for a 53 yard run in the playoffs in 1984. Brady could never do that. Montana having issues looking onto receivers? I've never heard of that. Is that in a book? Regardless it doesn't matter because I wasn't talking about it. So I don't why you brought it up. Or a lot of other things you're bringing up about him good or bad. I was talking about his athletic ability. And Steve Young's. 49ers organization for a while loved guys that could utilize their legs. Brady isn't that and never was. So it was easy to see why he was passed on.

Great QB's can elevate teams , Brady elevated a Patriots WR corps that mostly were journey men and a number of them were outta the NFL years later. So before we say , a guy couldn't do it ...Brady did. If you asked anyone if they believed the 5-11 Patriots of 2000 would become what we see...a lot would have laughed at this.

Yes they can. They can also be hindered by them. There are tons of examples in NFL history where quality quarterbacks are stuck on inept teams. Rivers is a living example. Brees as well, although the Saints are finally turning things around on defense. Brady didn't have a stellar receiving core early in his career. What he did have was a quality defense for a long time, and still has one of the best coaches in NFL history. Arguably the best. Brady wouldn't be dragging the Dennis Erickson 49ers to Super Bowls.

[HowitzerJoe]

While my Eagles are on their bye this week, there's still football to watch today, most notably the 4:30 matchup between Atlanta and the now Ezekiel Elliott-less Cowboys. If Dallas isn't in desperation mode, they should be, trailing NFC East leading Philly by three games in the win column, they simply can't afford to fall further behind before next week's Sunday night battle with the Birds.

They're playing for a wild card anyway unless Wentz gets hurt. Eagles look like they are on a roll. Cowboys schedule looks difficult down the stretch. Only easy win there looks like the Giants and maybe Chargers.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

They're playing for a wild card anyway unless Wentz gets hurt. Eagles look like they are on a roll. Cowboys schedule looks difficult down the stretch. Only easy win there looks like the Giants and maybe Chargers.

Well, the Birds don't exactly have it easy either. We still have two games with Dallas and a west coast swing with back to back games in Seattle where the Seahawks will put up a fight, even without Richard Sherman, then to L.A. to face the Rams who are looking more and more like the real McCoy instead of a flash in the pan.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I didn't say he was. But it's obvious that he could his legs when he had to and wouldn't look like a snail. A good example of this is when he burned the Giants defense for a 53 yard run in the playoffs in 1984. Brady could never do that. Montana having issues looking onto receivers? I've never heard of that. Is that in a book?

Before his injuries Brady wasn't exactly a statue back there. He could scramble enough to buy time. Sure he wouldn't break a huge run like Alex Smith does or what Joe did in his prime. But he could buy time. And in his book and the draft , scouts cited that Montana would lock onto receivers and its another reason his draft stock fell as we saw.

Regardless it doesn't matter because I wasn't talking about it. So I don't why you brought it up. Or a lot of other things you're bringing up about him good or bad. I was talking about his athletic ability. And Steve Young's. 49ers organization for a while loved guys that could utilize their legs. Brady isn't that and never was. So it was easy to see why he was passed on.

Yet the 49ers drafted Elvis Grbac and Jim Drunkenmiller. 2 guys who were about as mobile or less than Brady comically in drafts before this. Walsh wanted someone who had quick feet and likely saw Carmazzi being that in the 3rd. In the video Walsh was worried someone would move up and take the guy. Looking back on it , as Mariucci discussed things that went against Brady :

- He was considered pretty lanky and never seemed to see a weight room.

- His arm wasn't considered huge and just a normal passer.

- He never started fully at Michigan.

Yes they can. They can also be hindered by them. There are tons of examples in NFL history where quality quarterbacks are stuck on inept teams. Rivers is a living example. Brees as well, although the Saints are finally turning things around on defense. Brady didn't have a stellar receiving core early in his career. What he did have was a quality defense for a long time, and still has one of the best coaches in NFL history. Arguably the best. Brady wouldn't be dragging the Dennis Erickson 49ers to Super Bowls.

Phillip Rivers had a number of years where the Chargers went to the playoffs and should have won remember ? They didn't and a less talented Patriots team won. Does Drew Bledsoe win that Patriots team in 2001 ? That same defense ? Doubtful really considering the team went 5-11 and they were 1-2 right when he got injured. Belichick wasn't considered a mastermind as a coach til Brady arrived. He was considered a solid defensive coordinator. But not a big HC. Given how his Cleveland run went and how he started with New England.

Here is the thing if Brady gets drafted and starts , Mariucci likely stays with the 49ers in that What If game. They have a young QB who gets the system and plays to a great level. As John Madden said when Joe Montana retired , "People go what if Montana was drafted by the Cardinals....well Montana would win with the Cardinals." Great QB's win

[Gray Lensman]

Phillip Rivers had a number of years where the Chargers went to the playoffs and should have won remember ? They didn't and a less talented Patriots team won. Does Drew Bledsoe win that Patriots team in 2001 ? That same defense ? Doubtful really considering the team went 5-11 and they were 1-2 right when he got injured. Belichick wasn't considered a mastermind as a coach til Brady arrived. He was considered a solid defensive coordinator. But not a big HC. Given how his Cleveland run went and how he started with New England.

Here is the thing if Brady gets drafted and starts , Mariucci likely stays with the 49ers in that What If game. They have a young QB who gets the system and plays to a great level. As John Madden said when Joe Montana retired , "People go what if Montana was drafted by the Cardinals....well Montana would win with the Cardinals." Great QB's win

Belichick was considered as more than a solid defensive coordinator before Brady - his gameplan to stop the Bill's offense is already in the hall of fame. He was considered more along the lines of a great coordinator but mediocre head coach before 2001.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Belichick was considered as more than a solid defensive coordinator before Brady - his gameplan to stop the Bill's offense is already in the hall of fame. He was considered more along the lines of a great coordinator but mediocre head coach before 2001.

That is basically what I said. Belichick was considered a great defensive coach. But not a good overall coach given how Cleveland went. He handled his QB's wrong (the team was winning when he suddenly benched Kosar) and the team was never the same again. In fact if there was a thing called a Cleveland Curse , maybe it goes back to where the Browns were like 5-2 or 5-3 under Kosar but where he clashed with the guy , he cut him suddenly. The team nosedived and the QB position has been a joke since.

If anything the Browns need to bring Kosar back , let him do the #1 pick next year and hopefully the Kosar Curse ends there. But Belichick has done a way , way better job handling QB's since then.

[HowitzerJoe]

Before his injuries Brady wasn't exactly a statue back there. He could scramble enough to buy time. Sure he wouldn't break a huge run like Alex Smith does or what Joe did in his prime. But he could buy time. And in his book and the draft , scouts cited that Montana would lock onto receivers and its another reason his draft stock fell as we saw.

Brady has less than 1000 career rushing yards in 18 seasons. His longest run of his career is 22 yards. He was never scrambler. Ever. The only reason he isn't labeled a statue like Drew Bledsoe is because he gets rid the ball quickly, and rarely gets sacked. Buying time, shifting in the pocket, isn't the same as being to move out in space when the pocket crumbles. Brady won't be running a sprint right option or bootleg.

Yet the 49ers drafted Elvis Grbac and Jim Drunkenmiller. 2 guys who were about as mobile or less than Brady comically in drafts before this. Walsh wanted someone who had quick feet and likely saw Carmazzi being that in the 3rd. In the video Walsh was worried someone would move up and take the guy. Looking back on it , as Mariucci discussed things that went against Brady :

- He was considered pretty lanky and never seemed to see a weight room.

- His arm wasn't considered huge and just a normal passer.

- He never started fully at Michigan.

They were drafted because of their arm talent. Especially with Drunkenmiller over Plummer. Brady never displayed anything special about his arm coming out of the NFL Draft. Nothing to the point where it could overcome his lackluster athletic ability (like it did for Elvis and Jim). He just didn't stick out, which is why everyone passed on him.

Phillip Rivers had a number of years where the Chargers went to the playoffs and should have won remember ? They didn't and a less talented Patriots team won. Does Drew Bledsoe win that Patriots team in 2001 ? That same defense ? Doubtful really considering the team went 5-11 and they were 1-2 right when he got injured. Belichick wasn't considered a mastermind as a coach til Brady arrived. He was considered a solid defensive coordinator. But not a big HC. Given how his Cleveland run went and how he started with New England.

Here is the thing if Brady gets drafted and starts , Mariucci likely stays with the 49ers in that What If game. They have a young QB who gets the system and plays to a great level. As John Madden said when Joe Montana retired , "People go what if Montana was drafted by the Cardinals....well Montana would win with the Cardinals." Great QB's win

Yes...Rivers played well on a stacked team. When that team started to crumble Rivers still played well, but not well enough to drag the team in the postseason. A problem that continues to this day. I'm not sure what point you're making with Drew Bledsoe. He had maybe two or three quality years. Even with a quality roster he wasn't playing spectacular year after year.

As for Belicheck not being great until Brady arrived, okay...you can say the same thing about Bill Walsh and Montana. Or Marv Levy and Jim Kelly. Having a great quarterback makes your job as a head coach easier. But it doesn't mean you're a fraud as a coach. Having Rivers didn't save Norv Turner in San Diego. Having John Elway didn't Wade Phillips in Denver.

LOL quoting John Madden. Montana would have won with the Cardinals. Okay yeah, and Steve Young would have won with the Buccaneers. Because great quarterbacks win and do it all by themselves. Circumstance is irrelevant. Because logic.

[HowitzerJoe]

That is basically what I said. Belichick was considered a great defensive coach. But not a good overall coach given how Cleveland went. He handled his QB's wrong (the team was winning when he suddenly benched Kosar) and the team was never the same again. In fact if there was a thing called a Cleveland Curse , maybe it goes back to where the Browns were like 5-2 or 5-3 under Kosar but where he clashed with the guy , he cut him suddenly. The team nosedived and the QB position has been a joke since.

If anything the Browns need to bring Kosar back , let him do the #1 pick next year and hopefully the Kosar Curse ends there. But Belichick has done a way , way better job handling QB's since then.

Cleveland did make the playoffs the very next year without Kosar. Don't forget that. Kosar by that point was finished anyway due to injuries and ineffective play. After he left Cleveland he was a backup and basically sat the bench the rest of his days.

[Gray Lensman]

Brady has a quick first step, which keeps him from getting labelled a statue. He's still not ever going to be considered fast past that first or second step. He does have a respectable number of rushing TD's and first downs based on that step (he's excellent at the QB sneak) but almost all of them are 1 yard plays.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Cleveland did make the playoffs the very next year without Kosar. Don't forget that. Kosar by that point was finished anyway due to injuries and ineffective play. After he left Cleveland he was a backup and basically sat the bench the rest of his days.

Kosar hadn't been healthy til those final 2-3 seasons. Once he was cut he signed with the Cowboys and relieved Aikman in a couple games and won. In fact he led the Cowboys to a TD in the NFC Championship game when he relieved Aikman. While he didn't play the final 3 seasons as a backup in Miami , he did use his brain to help Miami beat the Jets in the famous faked spike play.

In all Kosar had some legs left as Dallas showed us. Bill fucked up and admitted he never should have cut the home town hero Kosar years later and should have handled that better. The Browns made the playoffs in 1994 , yet a year later Belichick was ready to bench him for Eric Zier. So its not like Belichick really knew how to handle QB's then. He pushed one out , he had a veteran in Testeverde who struggled some in 1995 and then benched him and he likely would have pushed him out had the Browns not moved and he was fired.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Brady has less than 1000 career rushing yards in 18 seasons. His longest run of his career is 22 yards. He was never scrambler. Ever. The only reason he isn't labeled a statue like Drew Bledsoe is because he gets rid the ball quickly, and rarely gets sacked. Buying time, shifting in the pocket, isn't the same as being to move out in space when the pocket crumbles. Brady won't be running a sprint right option or bootleg.

He can't , that much is true. But he can buy time in the pocket and move. He's not immobile. He's more mobile than what Joe was near the end of his career.

Yes...Rivers played well on a stacked team. When that team started to crumble Rivers still played well, but not well enough to drag the team in the postseason. A problem that continues to this day. I'm not sure what point you're making with Drew Bledsoe. He had maybe two or three quality years. Even with a quality roster he wasn't playing spectacular year after year.

That Bledsoe wouldn't have made the Patriots take that next step. You can have a cannon for an arm like Bledsoe and Rivers. But unless your able to make it happen when you have to , your not gonna be at that level. Rivers never could take that stacked team to the next level when he had to. It spoke volumes that Brady took a less talented team over Rivers.

As for Belicheck not being great until Brady arrived, okay...you can say the same thing about Bill Walsh and Montana. Or Marv Levy and Jim Kelly. Having a great quarterback makes your job as a head coach easier. But it doesn't mean you're a fraud as a coach. Having Rivers didn't save Norv Turner in San Diego. Having John Elway didn't Wade Phillips in Denver.

Lets run down those coaches ...Walsh was with the 49ers as his 1st real NFL head coach gig. He pretty much had DeBerg but knew Montana would be the guy. Marv Levy had a failed run in Kansas City and lot was due to bad QB play. He was there 4-5 seasons and while the Chiefs weren't terrible under him , they needed help. Levy was helped by Jim Kelly and the K-Gun he'd run. Once Kelly started running that ...they struck GOLD. Norv Turner was never a good head coach and I knew once Marty was fired...the Chargers were on a slow train to shit. Rivers has a good arm and a decent QB. But like I said when stacked in the playoffs....he couldn't win there when he should.

LOL quoting John Madden. Montana would have won with the Cardinals. Okay yeah, and Steve Young would have won with the Buccaneers. Because great quarterbacks win and do it all by themselves. Circumstance is irrelevant. Because logic.

Steve Young had 2 NFL seasons with the Buccaneers. Its clear they were a stupid team then. Young improved more in his 2nd year with Tampa and its clear as he kept going he was getting better as we saw. Had the Bucs not decided to scrap it all and draft Testeverde , who knows how much Young could have done there ? Because he did do better the 2nd season and was traded away as we saw.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

At the time, no one knew Brady would turn into the superstar he became. If he played for anyone other than Darth Hoodie, chances are Brady might well have wound up flaming out early, becoming just another anonymous footnote in NFL history instead of a mortal lock future hall of famer.

The only real question with Brady was more if he could get a shot on a team or if the coaches and managment would pass him over for a more "conventional" college prospect. Brady's greatest strengths were always in his intangibles and that's something he had even college. He was pulling out big comebacks out of nowhere his whole life and the QB's his coaches wanted over him ended up failing and Brady had to beat them out. Scouts were just skeptical that it would translate into the NFL, which it did almost immediately.

What I don't think people expect was that Brady was so ferociously driven that he would become arguably the best pocket passer in NFL history with his decision making and ability to take care of the ball, a long with his ability to scramble at the right moments in the right time in the pocket to extend plays. Brady is on the elite list of bulk stats and efficiency in a combination that nobody else has.

But if he got a shot he would have made something happen. Being with Belichick who is the most game specific coach in the league probably jump started him being able to play more versatile and having the ability to adapt to the support he had to pull games out, but alot of that was just Brady. It's probably what would have taken him from very good to GOAT. But Brady was just a tremendous oversight and shows some of the flaws in scouting.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Wow this Redskins/Vikings game is way more fun than you'd expect. Cousins and Keenum are waging an air battle with deep passes and WTF moves. Like Washington throwing a 30+ yard pass on 4th and 2 . Then Keenum answers with a bomb to Diggs. Its wild to watch this.

Cleveland had a 10-0 lead and I'm sure fans were like...HOLY FUCK we may win one. Instead....sadly the Lions have roared back and realized , HOLY FUCK we may lose to the Browns. Its 10-10 there right now.

[Ghost Rider TheHellfireDemon]

Decent game for Murray 2 tds and Titans lead 14-6 vs the Bengals.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Brady has less than 1000 career rushing yards in 18 seasons. His longest run of his career is 22 yards. He was never scrambler. Ever. The only reason he isn't labeled a statue like Drew Bledsoe is because he gets rid the ball quickly, and rarely gets sacked. Buying time, shifting in the pocket, isn't the same as being to move out in space when the pocket crumbles. Brady won't be running a sprint right option or bootleg.





They were drafted because of their arm talent. Especially with Drunkenmiller over Plummer. Brady never displayed anything special about his arm coming out of the NFL Draft. Nothing to the point where it could overcome his lackluster athletic ability (like it did for Elvis and Jim). He just didn't stick out, which is why everyone passed on him.




Yes...Rivers played well on a stacked team. When that team started to crumble Rivers still played well, but not well enough to drag the team in the postseason. A problem that continues to this day. I'm not sure what point you're making with Drew Bledsoe. He had maybe two or three quality years. Even with a quality roster he wasn't playing spectacular year after year.

As for Belicheck not being great until Brady arrived, okay...you can say the same thing about Bill Walsh and Montana. Or Marv Levy and Jim Kelly. Having a great quarterback makes your job as a head coach easier. But it doesn't mean you're a fraud as a coach. Having Rivers didn't save Norv Turner in San Diego. Having John Elway didn't Wade Phillips in Denver.

LOL quoting John Madden. Montana would have won with the Cardinals. Okay yeah, and Steve Young would have won with the Buccaneers. Because great quarterbacks win and do it all by themselves. Circumstance is irrelevant. Because logic.

Brady's not a great scrambler but his movement in the pocket and ability to sense plays and make the right moves to extend plays is second to none. He doesn't really need to scramble, he understands the defense and the offense schemes so well he knows he can buy that extra 2 seconds taking 3 steps up and to the right or whatever he needs to do. Drew Bledsoe was a statue, he was a guy that if you got within 3 feet of him before he threw the ball the play was basically over because he wasn't going to do anything. That's traditionally what people mean by statue. Brady's actually 16 all time in sack percentage. Guys like Montana, Young and even Rodgers are all sacked at a higher frequency than Brady. The guys get sacked the least are guys like Brady, Brees, Manning (both of them), Matt Ryan etc who relatively stick to the pocket and don't scramble.

Again, the thing with Brady in the draft was he had high intangibles and low/average tangibles. They didn't expect his intangibles to translate and they didn't expect his tangibles to become elite through his work ethic.

I think typically you see a lot of great coach/QB pairings because typically a great coach and a great QB get defined by the ability to lead teams to wins. Rivers still played well statistically, but for years they were all kind of meaningless games that just generated stats. Joe Montana and Bill Walsh is a hard example because both of them joined the 49'ers in 79 and they started their run three years later when Montana and the rest of the team developed. Belichick had a 5 year sample size in Cleveland with one winning season and was largely considered a failure and looked to be on his way to having a second bad season in New England until Brady entered the fray (and unlike Montana, Brady wasn't a guy Belichick was grooming as the guy, Belichick actually went against the off season belief that Brady was the superior QB on the team and kept Bledsoe as the starter because of tenure).