Superman#30 Discussion and Spoilers

[stephens2177]

Supermans main supporting character has always been Lois,now it's Jon,that's your answer to why Lois is being left behind,she is 3rd string now,and she is there as support to Superman,but now also to Jon.

Ms Martian was in the panel where Jon loses it

Superman was written here we'll.

[Sacred Knight]

I'm not making excuses. I'm offering my genuine and honest opinion that it didn't bother me beyond the one aspect I listed. If I had a problem with more than that I'd say so. You disagree, and that's fine. But because I come from a different place doesn't mean I'm making excuses, nor do I think I'm obligated to feel the way others think I should feel. The way I should feel is the way I feel. And I've stated that honestly here.

[Nelliebly]

At the end of the day, I hope you guys get what you want somewhere sometime.

Me, I'm not ashamed to say nor do I think its wrong to say that first and foremost I'm into these titles for Superman. Not Lois, and not Jon. They support him. Doesn't mean I want them as stand-in dolls that never do anything, but Superman is what I'm here for on the reg. I'm unapologetic about that, and I shouldn't have to want something else or feel a different way.

No one said you had to be "ashamed" or "apologetic." You can want what you want. You can not care that much about the rest. That's all fine. You certainly have an entire male driven comics industry that supports you in this kind of view!

I will continue to speak up, speak my mind and express why I'm uncomfortable with the way Lois is treated. And I will look forward to the future where people who actually care about her being treated well are rewarded.

[Nelliebly]

Nor should you be. I've been really liking Lois and Jon in the current Superman comics but at the end of the day, I read Superman comics for Superman. And I personally like the Rebirth era of Superman comics because they focused on telling good stories above all else. The forced inclusivity is something I'm strongly opposed to.

Please explain how it's "forced inclusivity" to ask that Lois Lane, an 80 year female icon who is notoriously known for being devoted to her job, be portrayed that way in Superman Rebirth? How is it "forced inclusivity" to be concerned that a female character that a lot of people care about is being stripped of the things that make her iconic?

[Nelliebly]

Supermans main supporting character has always been Lois,now it's Jon,that's your answer to why Lois is being left behind,she is 3rd string now,and she is there as support to Superman,but now also to Jon.

Ms Martian was in the panel where Jon loses it

Superman was written here we'll.

That's terrible writing and I'm not making excuses for it.

The introduction of a child should not mean that the woman/mother is now treated poorly. If these writers are so inept that they can't handle adding a child to the mix and still have enough care to write Lois in-character then they don't belong on these books and DC should seek fresher, better talent.

[Sacred Knight]

How long has Sinestro been fairly villainous again? And what was his last fight with Hal over?

[Lvenger]

Supermans main supporting character has always been Lois,now it's Jon,that's your answer to why Lois is being left behind,she is 3rd string now,and she is there as support to Superman,but now also to Jon.

Ms Martian was in the panel where Jon loses it

Superman was written here we'll.

Huh I missed Miss Martian on my first read. That's a neat Easter egg.

[Lvenger]

How long has Sinestro been fairly villainous again? And what was his last fight with Hal over?

Basically since the end of the New 52/Rebirth. His last fight with Hal was about the Sinestro Corps having taken over as the main intergalactic police force whilst the Green Lantern Corps was MIA. Hal was the last GL and wanted to bust Sinestro's balls over his takeover, they fought, Hal blew the planet up and Sinestro and Parallax ended up where they were in Superman.

[misslane]

I do not agree with this nor do I agree with making excuses for them. Dan Jurgens, imo, has done pretty well by Lois. When he writes Lois, I can tell he cares about her and I can tell that he understands who she is, what kind of woman she is and what drives her. It hasn't been perfect but I can tell he is TRYING.

Tomasi and Gleason have, imo, done one of the WORST jobs with her of any writing team in recent memory. Outside of a few rare moments (and they RARE) she has done NOTHING substantive in their entire tenure on the book. She wore the Hellbat suit for like two panels--big whoop. They are responsible for starting this sickening image of her as a homemaker sitting at home, serving pie like a 50's housewife. I'm sure they are nice men and I wish them no ill will but it's beyond clear to me that neither of them are super familiar with the complexity of an extremely successful working woman also trying to raise a child and it shows in their writing. But I can't blame them entirely because editorial should be all over that and they are letting them do it.

I'm also not giving a pass to a fill in writer because, AGAIN, editorial should be right there to say, "hey maybe don't have Lois say she's going to serve pie" or "Lois and Clark actually work at the same office so this is a poor choice of words." Also, are you trying to tell me that a basic requirement of a fill in writer shouldn't be that he can write Lois HALF DECENT for the issue? Personally, I think a requirement for writing a Superman book----ANY Superman book---should be that you at least know that Lois Lane is a reporter. That seems like bare minimum knowledge.


I know you mean well with this but this very statement encapsulates the problem with the comics market.

First off, even if she's just the "main supporting character" then she should be receiving more page-time than she's getting now. She should be getting twice the attention. Twice the care. And treated a heck of a lot better. Even if she is just the most important supporting character (which I'll argue she's more than that in a minute but even going by this bare minimum standard) this is unacceptable treatment of her. She deserves to be written as a complex, multi-dimensional woman. She deserves writers who care about her and who treat her well. Who allow her to do MORE than just sit at home serving freaking pie. Superman, as a character---as an icon---is not served well by his most important supporting character treated this poorly. This does not help the brand or the franchise. This does not GROW these books or its readership in any capacity.

But, I'm going to take this further. You argue that she shouldn't be a co-star and that they shouldn't always be together. I don't actually think that's what ANYONE is saying here---I think you are misinterpreting our complaints---but OK. You claim "Superman is the draw."

OH REALLY? Because last time I checked, Superman hasn't been a huge "draw" for comics readers in a really, really long time. In fact, the comics industry has come under fire repeatedly for pandering to the same male demographic over and over and over again. The industry, as a whole, is struggling specifically because they refuse to adapt and seek more diverse writers and treat women as an equal part of the marketplace. Superman is the main draw for YOU. And that is OK. But you know what? If Lois had a larger role and was actually treated right? She might be a draw for female readers who would actually buy these books and keep these brand relevant. She certainly has had a larger role under writers like Gail Simone, Greg Rucka and even Busiek and all of those stories were well received. And acting like her "place" is to only stand there and support him because "he is the draw" is short sighted to the problems the entire industry is dealing with right now. You should want Lois to be given a lot of page time. You should want her to be written as the strong woman she is because those are the kinds of commitments that keep books relevant and keep a more diverse readership. Men trying to put Lois "in her place" and deny her a place as a true partner does absolutely nothing to keep this brand relevant. It doesn't bring in new readers. It doesn't challenge anything. It doesn't help the brand.

Trying to say, "Well it's Superman's book" really misses the point here. Of course it's his book. We all KNOW he's the star of Action and Superman. No one posting here is so stupid that they don't know that. But that doesn't mean it's OK to repeatedly reduce her like this and it also doesn't mean that she shouldn't have opportunities to be an actual co-star at some points and have more time in these books. It's not like these books are flying off the shelves. Frankly, increased time for Lois from writers who actually know what they are doing might drastically improve this book and open up a new readership. This discussion already took place over on the other thread about the LnC book. There are women out there who want to be part of this "club" and the door keeps getting shut in their face. And stuff like this is WHY.

I really want to see new talent on these books. Younger talent. Female talent. People who aren't white. That would be fresh. I want to see younger men write these books who KNOW what it's like to live with a woman as ambitious as Lois. I want to see actual fresh takes on motherhood and marriage and super heroism. This is stale.

Well said.

I will add, for what it's worth, that regardless of it being a different medium the Wonder Woman movie was able to serve its female lead and its male love interest by having Diana be the draw and the hero while Steve also contributed and shined in his own efforts and meaningful screentime. Comics, in this case Superman comics, need not be any different. It's not as if Superman comics and movies haven't done it before. I mean, even if it isn't perfect, Lois is given more to do and/or say in an average episode of Fleischer Superman or Adventures of Superman with George Reeves as well as the Donner films than she sometimes gets in the current Superman comics. So it would be really nice if suggesting that Lois be given a more significant, active, and progressive role in these stories wasn't seen as some sort of impossible and unreasonable demand.

[Sacred Knight]

Basically since the end of the New 52/Rebirth. His last fight with Hal was about the Sinestro Corps having taken over as the main intergalactic police force whilst the Green Lantern Corps was MIA. Hal was the last GL and wanted to bust Sinestro's balls over his takeover, they fought, Hal blew the planet up and Sinestro and Parallax ended up where they were in Superman.

Gotcha, thanks.

[Lvenger]

Please explain how it's "forced inclusivity" to ask that Lois Lane, an 80 year female icon who is notoriously known for being devoted to her job, be portrayed that way in Superman Rebirth? How is it "forced inclusivity" to be concerned that a female character that a lot of people care about is being stripped of the things that make her iconic?

I wasn't referring to Lois Lane with the forced inclusivity comment. As for Lois, her role since Convergence brought back the older, married to Superman Lois has been much greater. In your haste to damn the pie baking and background sidelining, you're overlooking how awful the New 52 was for Lois. She barely played a role in most New 52 Superman comics and when she was involved, it was either Lois friendzoning Clark in favour of Jonathan Carrol, getting superpowers, revealing Clark's identity to the world and a host of other bad moments for the character. Even granting your criticisms, Rebirth is still doing Lois far more favours than the New 52 ever did.

[misslane]

I wasn't referring to Lois Lane with the forced inclusivity comment. As for Lois, her role since Convergence brought back the older, married to Superman Lois has been much greater. In your haste to damn the pie baking and background sidelining, you're overlooking how awful the New 52 was for Lois. She barely played a role in most New 52 Superman comics and when she was involved, it was either Lois friendzoning Clark in favour of Jonathan Carrol, getting superpowers, revealing Clark's identity to the world and a host of other bad moments for the character. Even granting your criticisms, Rebirth is still doing Lois far more favours than the New 52 ever did.

No, it's not. It's exchanging one problem for another. It's like DC can't figure out how to write Lois: she's either devil or angel, Madonna or Whore. It's like she can never be a real three-dimensional person rather than a prop or plot device. Just because her characterization is more "likeable" in Rebirth doesn't make it better. She's still not getting character development that shows off her strengths as a character, including even her flaws and weaknesses.

[JAK]

I agree with this. This issue was not without merit. I am not a huge Lantern fan but I have a few friends who are to the point that I can appreciate some of the elements of the Lantern mythos brought into play here. It's not my choice for a Superman fill in issue but I can respect that for Lantern fans....it might be a fun treat. I also enjoyed some of the early set-up up of the first issue with the missing children and I did appreciate some of Superman's dialogue particularly when he talked about not allowing fear to rule one's choices. That was often a huge theme in the later Seasons of Smallville and it was one of the things I appreciated most about the series in the later years. I like that kind of frank dialogue about the way we can allow fear to rule our lives because I think that's relatable to all people.

However, I'm just gonna get real here: the way Lois was treated at the end of this issue really, really upset me. This is becoming a very bad pattern and I'm truly baffled as to why this keeps happening to her.

First off, Lois says, "Rough day at the office." Ok....that's a strange choice of words for LOIS LANE to use because they literally work at the same office and have for 8 decades.

Second, Lois then says she caught the "Breaking news story" that the children had been found. HUH???? Lois Lane does not watch "breaking news" at home from her kitchen! She leads investigations! Why wasn't she out there working this story? Why is she always shown AT HOME? Imagine how much better this story would have been if Clark and Lois were working this story TOGETHER and Lois continued to search/research while Superman dealt with the Parallax. This made no sense.

Funny enough, the "rough day at the office" line I didn't mind - but that's because I read it as her being somewhat sarcastic - specifically because they both do work at the same office normally. He's been off as Superman, which is the furthest thing from "office" you can get, hence the joke on her part. (at least as I took it)

But the reading of that *is* changed (after the fact) for me by the "breaking news story" line. I get that they wanted a way to tell people that the kids got home ok, but holy crap! Why couldn't they have her say something like "I've been working with the police station all night making sure all the kids got home to their families. Just sent the story to Perry before you got home." Her watching breaking news (without mention of her working on another piece or something when she saw it) just struck me as really ham-fisted..at best. And I do agree that it *is* part of a pattern. And that's a shame.

Finally, look....I feel like I'm becoming a broken record about the pie here but it's gotten really frustrating for me. And before anyone on here tries to tell me that "hey some women like to bake pies"....please do not. I am a married woman with a really busy job. I am a mother. And, sometimes, I like to bake pies. Usually on holidays. I agree completely that women---even working women---are complex figures. We have to play many different roles and wear different hats. But that doesn't change who we are as women---it doesn't change that we are ambitious and career driven and can have our own individual adventures. Marriage and motherhood have not fundamentally changed who I am as a woman. It has made me wiser, it has taught me to love harder, it has brought me both pleasure and PAIN that I've never known but I am still ME. This is not complexity we are seeing here on the pages of this book. What we are seeing is a famous female character who has notoriously been portrayed as extremely good at her job for 8 decades, repeatedly reduced to standing on the sidelines fulfilling a solely domestic role for a long time now in these books. She deserves better. They NEED to do better by her. I am thrilled the marriage is back and I really so like the concept of Lois as a mother but they MUST do better.

Mystery stories like this would be SO MUCH better if they focused on Clark and Lois chasing mysteries together and following leads rather than continually allowing him to do the work himself while she sits at home. I'm tired of a female character this smart and this accomplished being used this way. It's not OK. And it makes me really, really sour about the direction of the Superman books.

I definitely see what you mean. I think the pie doesn't bother me quite as much because my wife has both a job and a building career, and loves to bake often. She finds it relaxing (well, usually). But, rarely pies. If they're going to have her getting into baking as a downtime activity, I'd rather she experiment with it. But that's likely projection on my part, as Ronda sees a recipe and just experiments from there with adding and changing things.

This story could have really used a third issue, honestly. The mystery wasn't much of a mystery as that was resolved quickly, and the 2nd issue was a neat - albeit more traditional style - take on a Superman/Sinestro story, for the most part. With another issue, this could have been more like the old Skyhook story but with Parallax. With that, you could have Lois and Clark using their reporting skills along with him as Superman to search... not to mention playing up more of the correlation between the parents missing their kids and a possible threat to Jon.

[Sacred Knight]

While I would have rather she been in on the story, her staying home with Jon frankly doesn't bother me at all either. He's only 10. Some parents feel comfortable starting to leave a kid home alone by that age. Some parents don't. I have zero issue if they're characterized as a set of parents that don't. Everyone's different. My parents didn't let my brother stay home alone and watch my sister and I till he was 12. It all depends.

[JAK]

While I would have rather she been in on the story, her staying home with Jon frankly doesn't bother me at all either. He's only 10. Some parents feel comfortable starting to leave a kid home alone by that age. Some parents don't. I have zero issue if they're characterized as a set of parents that don't. Everyone's different. My parents didn't let my brother stay home alone and watch my sister and I till he was 12. It all depends.

Yeah, I can see that - it's why one option I had for the end was "I was working on/writing piece/expose "x" when I saw the news about the kids getting home" because that shows her home but still working on things for Perry/etc.

But I think they've left Jon home by himself before? Or am I remembering that wrong?