Why So Many Wasp-esque Characters?

[Mary Jay]

sure, it could be interpreted that way; with very limited context given. still, the last thing Tony says before Hank replies is that he's done the math. if he's been there 55 times, why didn't he stay there? how did the balance these quests with running Avengers Academy? why not just send a drone to the microverse?

Good question.

Maybe he went 55 times to explore the Microverse because for each physical space, there's a different microverse.

As for the "very limited context given", well... I have the whole context. I read the book, I have the physical copy at home. So I have the exact context of the scene. The previous panels were of the Avengers saying they have to go to the Microverse because they had received a distress call that might be from Jan. Thor said he'll go, so did Steve, and Tony. Then Clint asked "Go where?" and Peter said "Hank is going to shrink us down so small we're going to be, theoretically, in a Microverse". Then Tony answered "Not all of us" (as in the panel I posted).

[Michael Watkins]

still seems odd. skrull-Pym was attempting to murder Jan. her being in the microverse was weird enough. so Pym luckily rules out her being dead and narrows his search to the microverse. Jan's not an idiot. she would know not to travel very far from the point of the arrival. Hank had all sorts of ways to track her. eh, I guess it's not all that important now. but it's no wonder Maria was able to disappear so thoroughly.

[Mary Jay]

still seems odd. skrull-Pym was attempting to murder Jan. her being in the microverse was weird enough. so Pym luckily rules out her being dead and narrows his search to the microverse. Jan's not an idiot. she would know not to travel very far from the point of the arrival. Hank had all sorts of ways to track her. eh, I guess it's not all that important now. but it's no wonder Maria was able to disappear so thoroughly.

You have to remember that for the majority of people, Jan was dead. Pym thought for a long time that Jan's essence (her soul for lack of a better word) was trapped in overspace, and he sort of built the infinite mansion around it, if memory serves. He never considered she had disappeared into the Microverse. I was just providing an example of him going there. There was no clue that Jan was stuck in the microverse, so we've never seen Hank exploring microverses to try to find Jan. It was just extrapolation on my part. My bad.

And as for Maria... Hank said he had looked everywhere for her. He tried, the commies were just real good at hiding people, and Hank had no training whatsoever. He was just a young gifted biochemist on his honeymoon.

[CryNotWolf]

still seems odd. skrull-Pym was attempting to murder Jan. her being in the microverse was weird enough. so Pym luckily rules out her being dead and narrows his search to the microverse. Jan's not an idiot. she would know not to travel very far from the point of the arrival. Hank had all sorts of ways to track her. eh, I guess it's not all that important now. but it's no wonder Maria was able to disappear so thoroughly.

Well Hank was a very young man when Maria was kidnapped. This was long before he even discovered Pym Particles, so it makes sense that he wasn't able to find her even after a couple years of searching. Also IIRC Hank believed that Janet was stuck in the Underspace, a reality BELOW the microverse. There was even a giant Janet-shaped entity floating there, so yeah IDK what the deal with that was.

[Mary Jay]

Well Hank was a very young man when Maria was kidnapped. This was long before he even discovered Pym Particles, so it makes sense that he wasn't able to find her even after a couple years of searching. Also IIRC Hank believed that Janet was stuck in the Underspace, a reality BELOW the microverse. There was even a giant Janet-shaped entity floating there, so yeah IDK what the deal with that was.

That proved to be Carina Walters.

[PyroTwilight]

Because of movies really. I know folks often bring up Hope, Nadia and the MC2 Hope but they're so different from one another that if I hadn't heard it from writers etc... I'd have never believed the MC2 Hope was a factor in the stories whatsoever.

Ultimately it comes down to.

Comic Wasp has never been too promiment so as to not shoot her use down in case Ant-Man fails we'll only reference her in the films and give her and Hank a daughter, aka Hope.

Then the comics see this decide let's make our own Hope and get a vaguely close interpreation who could fit into 616 aka Nadia. Who ironically (well, purposefully but still) is technically Hope (name in Russian) and by way of legalities :P a Van Dyne.

Cassie's more amusing than anything since the Young Avengers have been getting revamped or updated quite a bit. And has probably been more used than her father was for years until the Ant-Man film. And presumably using Stature was no longer a no go so they used the other persona she happened to be fairly known as in MC2.

Thus we get 3 "Wasp's" in the comics and the 1 or 2 (if you want to count Jan there) in the films. I don't think at any point the Ant-Man legacy etc... played a real role with Cassie Lang at the moment at least in regards to the Wasp's except accidentally.

[Digifiend]

That is a good point there, Nadia's debut and Cassie 616 getting the Stinger powerset were at roughly the same time. Spencer and Waid may not have known each other's plans early enough.

[chamber-music]

Maria was kidnapped by Russian secret agents. Hank ran around looking for her. Hank was later told they found her body.

Hank wasn't a spy and he wasn't a superhero yet. He also had no resources and was in a foreign country. Not being able to find Maria is not something you can blame him for.

[Michael Watkins]

Maria was kidnapped by Russian secret agents. Hank ran around looking for her. Hank was later told they found her body.

Hank wasn't a spy and he wasn't a superhero yet. He also had no resources and was in a foreign country. Not being able to find Maria is not something you can blame him for.

sure I can. he blamed himself when she showed up, later; only to be revealed as MODAM. he clearly didn't do enough or Nadia wouldn't only now be turning up. him not being a spy doesn't mean much. who taught him to be a costumed hero? who taught him to be a supergenius? I can think of several occasions where he demonstrated the skills of a professional spy. are we to believe that he just took someone's word of her death? he, a biologist, didn't identify the body himself? why didn't he sneak back into the region when he became Ant-Man? shouldn't he have wanted revenge?

[CryNotWolf]

sure I can. he blamed himself when she showed up

Are you not familiar with the character? He blames himself for everything.

he clearly didn't do enough or Nadia wouldn't only now be turning up.

What the hell is this supposed to mean? He was he supposed to know he had a daughter somehow, and know she was in the Red Room? And he was supposed to locate and infiltrate it, as well?

him not being a spy doesn't mean much.

It means a lot, actually. He's not Black Widow, he had zero clue what to do, where to go, who to ask...the man tried and he failed. He lost his wife to the Soviet political machine, and that's just not something he was ever really equipped to fight.

who taught him to be a costumed hero? who taught him to be a supergenius?

Nobody taught him anything, which is why he needed a partner. Does the Wasp ring any bells to you? And nobody teaches you to be a supergenius, and being a supergenius doesn't count for much in that situation, especially when the narrative is against him ever finding Maria.

are we to believe that he just took someone's word of her death? he, a biologist, didn't identify the body himself?

No, he went searching for her again after being told she was dead, but then he was forced to go back home. It was fruitless, and if he didn't stop he probably would have been killed, but I suppose you would have liked that.

why didn't he sneak back into the region when he became Ant-Man? shouldn't he have wanted revenge?

Because becoming smaller wouldn't make combing an entire array of nations for one person any easier. Of course he wants revenge, she was his wife after all, but she was created as a backstory character, not his primary motivation, so writers never bothered with that, especially when Hank + Janet was the narrative for a long time after that.

Hank has never been omnicapable like many other superheroes. He's more realistic in that he's allowed to fail in serious ways, and saying he's at fault for not finding Maria...yeah that's just awful. Disgusting, really.

[Michael Watkins]

Are you not familiar with the character? He blames himself for everything.

I've read a good chunk of his appearances, yes. and he's generally right about his own culpability.

What the hell is this supposed to mean? He was he supposed to know he had a daughter somehow, and know she was in the Red Room? And he was supposed to locate and infiltrate it, as well?

how was he supposed to know that his fiancée was pregnant? and did you ask how Hank Pym, a man who can change his size, could infiltrate a location?

It means a lot, actually. He's not Black Widow, he had zero clue what to do, where to go, who to ask...the man tried and he failed. He lost his wife to the Soviet political machine, and that's just not something he was ever really equipped to fight.

yet he outsmarted Comrade X (Russia's top spy) and foiled a soviet plot in his first appearance as Ant-Man. the man is a supergenius. his lack of creativity is inexcusable.

Nobody taught him anything, which is why he needed a partner.

he didn't need her. he was pining for his wife. so he replaced her with a younger look-alike. the motivation was loneliness.

Does the Wasp ring any bells to you? And nobody teaches you to be a supergenius, and being a supergenius doesn't count for much in that situation, especially when the narrative is against him ever finding Maria.

my point was that he had all of the tools that he needed to find Maria. he chose to believe a flimsy lie and not follow-up. Nadia has a similar intellect. look at how much she has accomplished at her young age. she escaped Russia and made it to Pym's house.

No, he went searching for her again after being told she was dead, but then he was forced to go back home. It was fruitless, and if he didn't stop he probably would have been killed, but I suppose you would have liked that.

why are you personalizing it?

Because becoming smaller wouldn't make combing an entire array of nations for one person any easier.

having read a good portion of Tales to Astonish, I can easily point to other stories where he has combed a city using his ants. the identity is especially useful in spying and the location of others.

Of course he wants revenge, she was his wife after all, but she was created as a backstory character, not his primary motivation, so writers never bothered with that, especially when Hank + Janet was the narrative for a long time after that.

that makes Hank look bad.

Hank has never been omnicapable like many other superheroes. He's more realistic....

i'll point you to Mighty Avengers and Seeley's Ant-Man & the Wasp mini; for examples of omnicapability.

[CryNotWolf]

I've read a good chunk of his appearances, yes. and he's generally right about his own culpability.

So you're sticking to your story that it's Hank's fault Maria was kidnapped? Not the Soviet Gov't that kidnapped her? Not the American authorities that refused to help?

how was he supposed to know that his fiancée was pregnant? and did you ask how Hank Pym, a man who can change his size, could infiltrate a location?

She showed zero signs of pregnancy. I'm guessing you won't be able to point me to a page showing otherwise. And I'll ask AGAIN, since you don't like answering questions you can't answer, how was he supposed to find the Red Room? How would he even know his daughter was there?

yet he outsmarted Comrade X (Russia's top spy) and foiled a soviet plot in his first appearance as Ant-Man. the man is a supergenius. his lack of creativity is inexcusable.

Are you really bringing up an idiotic villain who was defeated by having their shoelaces tied together as an argument for Hank's capabilities? And what EXACTLY do you mean by "lack of creativity"? Please expand on that and explain how exactly he should have found Maria.

he didn't need her. he was pining for his wife. so he replaced her with a younger look-alike. the motivation was loneliness.

He did need her. All the time, he'd be dead 100x over if it wasn't for Janet. And so what if he moved on, do you really find that to be damning in any way?

my point was that he had all of the tools that he needed to find Maria. he chose to believe a flimsy lie and not follow-up. Nadia has a similar intellect. look at how much she has accomplished at her young age. she escaped Russia and made it to Pym's house.

He had NONE of the tools. None of them. He tried and he failed. I know that's a difficult concept for some to grasp when it comes to superhero comics, but that's what happened.

Also it's quite telling that you compare someone escaping a facility and finding a public hero's whereabouts to tracking down someone you aren't even aware exists, in a country that's very unfriendly to foreigners.

having read a good portion of Tales to Astonish, I can easily point to other stories where he has combed a city using his ants. the identity is especially useful in spying and the location of others.

Combing a city is a bit different than combing every country behind the Iron Curtain. And ants don't operate in the cold. Try again.

that makes Hank look bad.

How so? His wife was kidnapped, he tried desperately to find her but ultimately failed. He sunk himself into science trying to deal with his deep depression. In that situation, moving on was the best possible thing he could have done. Shaming someone for that is pretty low.

i'll point you to Mighty Avengers and Seeley's Ant-Man & the Wasp mini; for examples of omnicapability.

Both of which prove only that he's capable. Neither of which lend themselves to the idea that he could have saved Maria, since these books both take place at the height of his capability and experience and long after Maria's death.