Can we admit that ASM title is in a sales slump?

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

Of course ASM sales are slumping, but defenders will always find something else to blame other than the quality of the book. They've been doing it since 2007.

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

Agreed. It is untenable to suggest that Amazing Spider-Man is uniquely bad in its performance. The X-Men are in a much worse place, for example, especially due to major problems that are fairly specific to the X-Men. But that doesn't mean that Spider-Man is doing as well as it could or should do. If Amazing Spider-Man is failing to meet its full sales potential--and sales from recent years suggest that to be the case--it can be a result of a mixture of problems common to many comics in general, problems common to the Marvel Universe in particular, and problems specific to Spider-Man.

An interesting note here with regards to comparisons over time. Looking at comic unit sales by year, the top 300 comics each month sold 85.27 million copies in 2007. After 2007, there was a decline of between 5% and 8% each year, until comic unit sales for the top 300 comics bottomed out at 69.2 million in 2010. But unit sales have generally increased each year since then. By 2016 and 2017, the top 300 comics sold 89.35 million copies. In other words, more copies of the top 300 comics are being sold today than ten years ago. That could be a result of any number of factors, of course.

Marvel is running all of their franchises into the ground right now. If not for their cinematic success, they probably would have folded by now.

Unfortunately, I don't really see it getting significantly better until the clique...ahem...the "braintrust" is gone.

[Uncanny Mutie]

Marvel is running all of their franchises into the ground right now. If not for their cinematic success, they probably would have folded by now.

Right! For quite some time now, Marvel's cinematic success is all that has kept their comics coasting. I keep telling people, the bigger, better, and more successful Marvel's movies have become, the worse their actual comics have become.

[Miles To Go]

Right! For quite some time now, Marvel's cinematic success is all that has kept their comics coasting. I keep telling people, the bigger, better, and more successful Marvel's movies have become, the worse their actual comics books have become.

While I think the comics were going off the rails a couple of years before Iron Man even came out, you're right in that the movies have provided them with a lucrative complacency blanket and thus they don't see the need to course correct.

Marvel is WCW post-Goldberg's streak at the moment.

[Johnatellodi]

While I think the comics were going off the rails a couple of years before Iron Man even came out, you're right in that the movies have provided them with a lucrative complacency blanket and thus they don't see the need to course correct.

Marvel is WCW post-Goldberg's streak at the moment.

If they started going off the rails around 2008, let's at least say the flung into the air and hung there for a brief moment before crashing down into a 3 foot deep kiddy-pool.

I mean, I thought the original Marvel Now launch had some great stuff going for it with Superior Spider-Man, Jason Aaron and Esad Ribic on Thor, Remender on X-Frce, Hickman's Avengers - all daring, fresh takes with great creators aboard. Yeah, it was already apparent that the event-driven direction was out of hand, and the relationship between editorial and readership has felt...yucky...for while now, but there were some bright moments coming out around 2012-2015.

[Miles To Go]

I thought Superior Spider-Man was trash (i was quite happy to see a CBR article call it a pointless and mean-spirited story), but if you feel there were diamonds in the muck, that's fine too. I quite liked Spider-Verse for instance, as well as Hickman's Fantastic Four

[Uncanny Mutie]

I thought Superior Spider-Man was trash (i was quite happy to see a CBR article call it a pointless and mean-spirited story), but if you feel there were diamonds in the muck, that's fine too. I quite liked Spider-Verse for instance, as well as Hickman's Fantastic Four

See, I loved Superior (end of it was a dud, though) and hated Spider-Verse. Spider-Verse was too far outside of Spidey's realm IMO, and was just a pointless story with a paper thin plot that was obviously just to sell more Spider-Man toys, IMO.

[farmernudie]

If they started going off the rails around 2008, let's at least say the flung into the air and hung there for a brief moment before crashing down into a 3 foot deep kiddy-pool.

I mean, I thought the original Marvel Now launch had some great stuff going for it with Superior Spider-Man, Jason Aaron and Esad Ribic on Thor, Remender on X-Frce, Hickman's Avengers - all daring, fresh takes with great creators aboard. Yeah, it was already apparent that the event-driven direction was out of hand, and the relationship between editorial and readership has felt...yucky...for while now, but there were some bright moments coming out around 2012-2015.

Yeah, after OMD onward I was truly surprised at how rude certain heads at marvel would get at various forums, literally telling long time customers to stop buying in quite snarky ways. Fans have always disagreed or not liked certain directions, but it felt to me anyway, that things had REALLY changed within comics and how people spoke to each other in general, on forums, and in society even ..just so rudely...just because they don't agree on whatever the topic. It's why I took a 3 year break or so from all boards. I started reading more DC when I've always been a Spider-Man and Marvel loyal guy for decades. No one was attacking their customers at DC to the same level certain high ups at Marvel were aggressively doing it imo. Sad.

[rward777]

Asm is dying a slow death.

[rward777]

Yeah, after OMD onward I was truly surprised at how rude certain heads at marvel would get at various forums, literally telling long time customers to stop buying in quite snarky ways. Fans have always disagreed or not liked certain directions, but it felt to me anyway, that things had REALLY changed within comics and how people spoke to each other in general, on forums, and in society even ..just so rudely...just because they don't agree on whatever the topic. It's why I took a 3 year break or so from all boards. I started reading more DC when I've always been a Spider-Man and Marvel loyal guy for decades. No one was attacking their customers at DC to the same level certain high ups at Marvel were aggressively doing it imo. Sad.

RYV Peter is more of the real Peter than the 616 Peter.

[Miles To Go]

See, I loved Superior (end of it was a dud, though) and hated Spider-Verse. Spider-Verse was too far outside of Spidey's realm IMO, and was just a pointless story with a paper thin plot that was obviously just to sell more Spider-Man toys, IMO.

A large part of my enjoyment of Spider-Verse didn't come from the main story, more the expanded material. Nice little stories from some of the great Spider-Writers like the increasingly rare treat that is Roger Stern, the newspaper strip getting acknowledged, the damage control to Mayday by Tom DeFalco, and the little short that introduced RYV Peter.

[Dan Slott]

Yeah, after OMD onward I was truly surprised at how rude certain heads at marvel would get at various forums, literally telling long time customers to stop buying in quite snarky ways. Fans have always disagreed or not liked certain directions, but it felt to me anyway, that things had REALLY changed within comics and how people spoke to each other in general, on forums, and in society even ..just so rudely...just because they don't agree on whatever the topic. It's why I took a 3 year break or so from all boards. I started reading more DC when I've always been a Spider-Man and Marvel loyal guy for decades. No one was attacking their customers at DC to the same level certain high ups at Marvel were aggressively doing it imo. Sad.

farmernudie,
I'm sorry. I've tried giving these forums a breather, but that is complete BS. You were there and you are turning a BIG blind eye to how vicious some corners of fandom were to the One More Day team and Brand New Day team. There was some very nasty shit coming from "fans" who had the freedom of social media/internet anonymity to be horrible on an unbelievable level.

As a gag, I pretended that YOUR screen name was actually some kind of sock puppet account I'd created. And when people on the message boards turned around and started treating you like me-- when you had the smallest taste of some of that (and not even from every quarter)-- you shuttered your account.

(EDIT - no text in the original post is being altered, just this additional commentary is being added. A couple of very unscrupulous people on the internet are trying to add some of their VERY deceptive spin to posts from this thread. And one of the things that makes that more than a little disgusting is that these are people who have openly targeted a number of Marvel's female staff members as well as a few transgender comic pros in weeks of massive social media attacks.

Anyone who has read all my posts on this thread should be able to see through the spin they're trying to add. One of the tricks they're trying to do is imply intent. It was my intent to point out that it was too easy to hide behind a screen name. The "gag" was 1 post to illustrate that. And it was a gag in that it was absurd. Farmernudie and I were clearly two different people. This is from Post #50 of this same thread:

"Steve Wacker and I were arguing the case for people using real names instead of screen names on these boards. We were saying that people's views would hold more weight if they used their actual names-- and that anyone using a wacky screen name could be anyone-- that the freedom of anonymity was also the freedom to act without common courtesy-- that it made it too easy for people to say things that they'd never say to someone's face in the real world. And members here at CBR (yourself included) were making the case that screen names were no different from pen names (Samuel Clemens' "Mark Twain" name was brought up a couple of times) and that someone's views were just as valid if they used their real names as if they used their screen names.

And I made a grand total of 1 post - where I said that I had a secret to reveal, that you were actually a screen name that I came up with.

And that was patently absurd. You'd been on the Spider-Man boards before I ever jumped on. You'd been on other boards around the net. I would've had to have played an insane long game for any of that to be remotely true. It was ludicrous."

That should have been the end of it. Unfortunately it wasn't. There was no intent to "give" someone a taste-- that is spin that an amoral blogger has added into the mix. And that's a very deceptive kind of spin perpetrate.

Another person has added a flat-out falsehood into the narrative. They say I "created" a sock puppet account. At no point did that ever happen. Check all the posts here. The only place that happened is in that person's imagination.

Your wife set up an account just to message me and ask me to wave a magic wand and undo it. And I effectively did. And for that brief window of time YOU were singing a completely different tune than the one you're playing here on the board now.

And, yeah, DC has reacted similarly in the past. Talk with Ron Marz for a spell.

This isn't a Marvel thing. This is a social media thing. I've been a Marvel comic fan for decades as well-- and I have never seen anything from FANDOM the way it's been with the advent of social media. That's the biggest change here. Just last week I watched as Alfred Molina shuttered his social media because it was too toxic-- and the man was a saint. I've seen the politest actors and creators on Doctor Who do the same thing in recent years. It's everywhere. I'm currently watching a corner of fandom demonizing a couple of transgender comic book creators and other comic creators being called "bullies" for standing up to their harassers. It's crazy the entitlement some people have and how they think they can use words like "fans" or "consumers" to shield them from god awful behavior-- behavior usually made behind the safety of a screen name and a computer monitor miles and miles away.

About 10 years ago, you got the briefest and smallest taste of some of the shit a comic creator has to deal with.
(EDIT - The time frame on this comment is from what happened in 2008, during the fallout from OMD and the start of BND...)
As someone who's been shown stacks of files from the NYPD, the NYPD cyber crimes unit, and the District Attorney's office stuffed full with some of the most fucked up death threats over a COMIC BOOK STORY...
(EDIT - The time frame on this comment is from December 2012, four and a half years *AFTER* I made that one post. December of 2012 is when ASM #700, the death of Peter Parker, came out. At that time negative fan reaction escalated up to an unheard of level. That's when I started receiving files full of death threats. There is *no possible way* I could have foreseen that outcome in 2008. For someone to imply not just the INTENT that I wished that upon someone else-- which I did not then, do not now, and never would want to in the future-- is wrong. For someone to understand that context and to still make those kinds of false accusations is willfully deceptive.)
...I pray you never have to take a good look at the full breadth and scope of it all.

[WebLurker]

farmernudie,
I'm sorry. I've tried giving these forums a breather, but that is complete BS. You were there and you are turning a BIG blind eye to how vicious some corners of fandom were to the One More Day team and Brand New Day team. There was some very nasty shit coming from "fans" who had the freedom of social media/internet anonymity to be horrible on an unbelievable level.

Fair enough; I've seen some pretty nasty stuff on this board alone, let alone in organized fandoms in general. However, I do wonder if the professionals sinking to their level is a really good solution. "Paying evil unto evil" in this case seems to encourage the cyberbullies in the fanbase to keep it up their behavior; I saw one such YouTuber use Marvel employees acidic relationships with such personages to "justify" Heather Antos getting bullied in the milkshake incident (wrong, morally and logically, of course, but that seems to be the mindset of their off-kilter view of things). It also doesn't always reflect well on you professional. As someone relatively disconnected from the thing, I don't buy stuff you write largely because of watching you get into fights with people online.

As a gag, I pretended that YOUR screen name was actually some kind of sock puppet account I'd created. And when people on the message boards turned around and started treating you like me-- when you had the smallest taste of some of that (and not even from every quarter)-- you shuttered your account. Your wife set up an account just to message me and ask me to wave a magic wand and undo it. And I effectively did. And for that brief window of time YOU were singing a completely different tune than the one you're playing here on the board now.

That sounds cruel, even if the victim isn't exactly being on the straight and narrow, so to speak.

And, yeah, DC has reacted similarly in the past. Talk with Ron Marz for a spell.

This isn't a Marvel thing. This is a social media thing. I've been a Marvel comic fan for decades as well-- and I have never seen anything from FANDOM the way it's been with the advent of social media. That's the biggest change here. Just last week I watched as Alfred Molina shuttered his social media because it was too toxic-- and the man was a saint. I've seen the politest actors and creators on Doctor Who do the same thing in recent years. It's everywhere. I'm currently watching a corner of fandom demonizing a couple of transgender comic book creators and other comic creators being called "bullies" for standing up to their harassers. It's crazy the entitlement some people have and how they think they can use words like "fans" or "consumers" to shield them from god awful behavior-- behavior usually made behind the safety of a screen name and a computer monitor miles and miles away.

About 10 years ago, you got the briefest and smallest taste of some of the shit a comic creator has to deal with. As someone who's been shown stacks of files from the NYPD, the NYPD cyber crimes unit, and the District Attorney's office stuffed full with some of the most fucked up death threats over a COMIC BOOK STORY, I pray you never have to take a good look at the full breadth and scope of it all.

Wonder how much of it is the Internet bringing out the worse in people (instant response time with anonymity) or modern society, which seems to be increasingly falling under bipolarity, tribalism, and division with no room for compromise.

[Kevinroc]

Wonder how much of it is the Internet bringing out the worse in people (instant response time with anonymity) or modern society, which seems to be increasingly falling under bipolarity, tribalism, and division with no room for compromise.

I think the internet has contributed to modern society's increasing hostility. It's still (probably) worse on the internet than it is in person. But people aren't shy about stating some very awful ideas out in public.

It sort of sucks the air out of the room when the topic turns to such things. How are we supposed to talk about diminishing returns on the current run of ASM?

[farmernudie]

farmernudie,
I'm sorry. I've tried giving these forums a breather, but that is complete BS. You were there and you are turning a BIG blind eye to how vicious some corners of fandom were to the One More Day team and Brand New Day team. There was some very nasty shit coming from "fans" who had the freedom of social media/internet anonymity to be horrible on an unbelievable level.

As a gag, I pretended that YOUR screen name was actually some kind of sock puppet account I'd created. And when people on the message boards turned around and started treating you like me-- when you had the smallest taste of some of that (and not even from every quarter)-- you shuttered your account. Your wife set up an account just to message me and ask me to wave a magic wand and undo it. And I effectively did. And for that brief window of time YOU were singing a completely different tune than the one you're playing here on the board now.

And, yeah, DC has reacted similarly in the past. Talk with Ron Marz for a spell.

This isn't a Marvel thing. This is a social media thing. I've been a Marvel comic fan for decades as well-- and I have never seen anything from FANDOM the way it's been with the advent of social media. That's the biggest change here. Just last week I watched as Alfred Molina shuttered his social media because it was too toxic-- and the man was a saint. I've seen the politest actors and creators on Doctor Who do the same thing in recent years. It's everywhere. I'm currently watching a corner of fandom demonizing a couple of transgender comic book creators and other comic creators being called "bullies" for standing up to their harassers. It's crazy the entitlement some people have and how they think they can use words like "fans" or "consumers" to shield them from god awful behavior-- behavior usually made behind the safety of a screen name and a computer monitor miles and miles away.

About 10 years ago, you got the briefest and smallest taste of some of the shit a comic creator has to deal with. As someone who's been shown stacks of files from the NYPD, the NYPD cyber crimes unit, and the District Attorney's office stuffed full with some of the most fucked up death threats over a COMIC BOOK STORY, I pray you never have to take a good look at the full breadth and scope of it all.

We're talking about two COMPLETE DIFFERENT TOPICS NOW. you changed it.

I don't have knowledge on Ron Marz,or whatever you're talking about. He attacks polite customers?

I'm talking about higher ups, and I named NO NAMES who attacked people at times overly defensively for simply saying very nicely on various boards they didn't like the new mandate and direction. They were often told very sarcastically & condescendingly to stop reading and move on. Still not naming names.

You're talking about nasty fans who've attacked you. Sure that happened too. Wasn't talking about that at all.

Then you also bring up a third topic I wasn't talking about, even farther different when you tried stealing my identity as a joke or whatever. Then one site did get kinda mean and nasty calling me names for days and I wasn't aware cuz I work and such and don't live on here. The one higher up or admin there was kind and believed me though that I wasn't you. And then you were kind to my wife and I and cleared it up but then some people still didn't believe I wasn't dan slott and it was so dopey the way some crucified me. Not sure why we are talking about this since I was making a simple claim about "the polite customers with different views told to move on in a snarky way"

But my point in no way was bs. If anything, your initial response here today proves my point. I'm insulted you are not reading or listening, just replying. I saw people being rude to people which is true. So don't get defensive and argue something I wasn't saying. I bet you have seen stuff crudely said to you & others at Marvel. Those people are horrid. But that doesn't justify the times people got ultra catty at various forums for no reason I could see except for sharing their opinion in a neutral way.