Ben Reilly Scarlet Spider #7 Discussion/Spoilers

[Huntsman Spider]

Maybe take a break. Heck, I've done that in the past and come back a bit less jaded.

I read the first two issues of PAD's run with Scarlet Spider - fan of PAD but wasn't keen at all on the 'new' Reilly and Kaine felt a little off (when compared to his characterisation in the Yost run) so decided to give it a miss.

Based on the press, I decided to pick issue 7 and really enjoyed it. I smirked at the nod to heroes having trouble staying dead (the revolving door effect) and the Deadpool references. I also liked the 'broken soul' aspect, which indirectly answers a question from Yost's run about whether clones have souls.

I do wonder how Clone Conspiracy would have come across if this had actually been included in that event though - more sympathetic towards Reilly perhaps?

It definitely would have. Like, he didn't just go insane and decide he was gonna kill everybody off and then "reanimate" them just because; his very soul was so damaged that almost nothing of the man he used to be was still residing inside that new body of his. It's like Jason Todd over in Under the Red Hood, but magnified to a more comic bookish extreme; Jason just wanted the Joker dead and only turned on Batman when Batman refused to do it, but Ben was so far gone he was going to destroy the world just because his brother told him, "No, this is wrong, and you're wrong for even thinking about it, let alone doing it." Then again, Under the Red Hood was ultimately telling a far more personal story about the trauma of death and the aftermath of its protagonist's failures and missteps than The Clone Conspiracy did, for all its comic bookish grandiosity; even though The Clone Conspiracy touched upon similar themes, it did so without exactly giving them the depth of exploration and development they deserved, which was what worked against Ben Reilly's characterization.

[ZeroBG82]

I'm a couple of days behind on this one, but I finally had a chance to read it today. I've been kind of indifferent to this series, on the whole. It isn't poorly written, but it hasn't felt like the book had any real forward momentum. Until now. PAD FTW, yet again. I knew if there was anybody that could take the set up from Clone Conspiracy and somehow work it back into Ben Reilly in a way that felt genuinely earned it was PAD. And here we finally get our first big payoff.

The moment at the climax when Ben chooses who Death will restore made this series entirely worth it. There is MY Ben Reilly. Even his tormented desperation when Death refuses him finally rings true. I love how PAD effectively nukes the Clone Conspiracy eternal life tech, and really works to explore the idea that what happened to Ben has so blackened his soul that he is just THAT close to madness. But also that he isn't yet so far gone that he can't find himself someplace healthy again.

Really curious where this book goes from here. I assume it won't be as simple as Ben choosing redemption. This new, slightly sinister, style has some mileage on it yet, and I can't see PAD just throwing away the Ben/Kaine dynamic when he's built it so perfectly. Each pushes the other to be better in their own twisted, not always healthy, way.

I do hope we get the blonde hair back next, though I'm not going to be heartbroken if we don't see it.

In short, PAD has earned my dollars on this series. I'm in, let's see what you've got for us next.

[AmazingFantasy]

I'm with y'all. In PAD I trusted and he came through. Loving this series and can't wait for the next issue!

[Minerboh]

So....Kaine and Abigail remained dead?

[Pav]

I'll be honest: It's strange to me that it seems like many people have an easier time accepting Ben's actions due to a damaged soul rather than his problem simply being a twisted sense of morality due to the trauma he received at the hands of the Jackal (on top of his whole life being pretty tricky).

*shrugs*

On the subject of souls: do you think that Ben's experience with Death!Margo in the realm of souls is a direct callback to Sensational Spider-Man #28, where it's implied that Dr. Strange allows Peter to come into contact with Ben's soul?

Beyond that - man, I almost don't even know what to say. This issue really took the series into its next phase; it's clear that Ben has a path out in front of him, but how easy will it be to walk the straight and narrow? Life doesn't throw Spider-Men of any kind many softballs.

It'll be interesting to see how Ben and Kaine interact now, as well. Will Kaine accept that Ben saved the girl? Or will he just find other reasons to hate Ben?

Oh, and honestly: PAD really earned my respect when Death told Ben straight up that he killed the girl. For me, that shows that PAD isn't going to completely disregard the dark parts of Ben's existence, which I'm glad for. I don't have a problem with him gaining some happiness/heroism back into his life, but I don't necessarily want the journey to be easy, y'know?

It is a story, after all

A story with SLINGERS ready to appear!

PREDICTION: by the end of the Slingers arc, Ben is leading the team.

-Pav, who probably should've labeled it "HOPE" instead...

[Aioros22]

The two are connected thought, it was the trauma experienced by Warren that blackened his soul and twisted his former sense of self, of morality, of life. While I wouldn`t have mind a more fleshed out into the psyche of Ben out of CC (Think current Red Hood and the Outlaws or hey, Dematteis original material) I think by setting up Anubis Head as his twisted cosncience PAD was already visually implying that the trauma dangerously close to Warren if he would kept going the same path.

Not a perfect first arc and like you said, he was still told flat he was guilty of the trouble he brought but I feel Death was used to tell Ben "look, this is where you`re going. You either do better because you still can or next time I see you, which at this rate with everyone trying to off you will happen rather sooner than later, you won`t come back". His sacrífice towards the other two was the nice tradeoff.

[Aioros22]

So....Kaine and Abigail remained dead?

Nein10char.

[ZeroBG82]

I'll be honest: It's strange to me that it seems like many people have an easier time accepting Ben's actions due to a damaged soul rather than his problem simply being a twisted sense of morality due to the trauma he received at the hands of the Jackal (on top of his whole life being pretty tricky).

Without getting into, once again, the many problems I have with Clone Conspiracy, I'm going to try and respond to this. For me, it's not that it's easier to accept, per se. It's that this new development is much more Ben Reilly than the presentation offered previously. But I feel that Ben's whole arc back in the 90's breaks down into two elements: 1) When Ben can't be Peter, who does he choose to be? And 2) Ben was more or less unbreakable. Whatever life threw at him, he found a way to carry on. And ultimately, to be a hero. Even at the end, beaten half to death by Osborn and told he's a useless, pointless copy of the original Spider-Man, he finds a way to step up and save the day. The Clone Conspiracy "origin" for "new" Ben isn't ineffective, it's unearned. We don't spend any time with him to understand him beyond his megalomania. But here it isn't about the trauma, it's about Ben facing and acknowledging it.

So it isn't that the trauma he experienced at Warren's hands isn't a suitable explanation for madness. That is still the argument being put forward by PAD here. It's that, finally, we learn that Ben isn't actually broken. Not all the way. When presented with the reality of what he's been through, Ben is here given a physical manifestation of his trauma. A chance to see just how much of himself has been worn away. And he doesn't break. In fact, he follows that up by doing the most heroic thing he's done in this series yet, confronting Death and challenging her. And even that action reflects the trauma he's been through. Ben isn't the man he once was. He can now see that clearly. He can now see that there is a way to return, more or less, to the man he was. The question moving forward seems to be, will that be what he wants? And what obstacles will be put in his path? That, to me, is finally an interesting development. Let's actually deal with the consequences, to Ben and his psyche, of what he has been through.

For the first time, at least for me, PAD has truly found a way to connect "new" Ben, Clone Conspiracy edition, to the original incarnation of the character. And he's managed to do it in a way that allows him to continue to explore the darker elements of the character if he chooses. This is no longer the story about a crazy clone (the Clone Conspiracy version of the character), or an amoral Spider-Man (what PAD has effectively been playing with in his first arc). It's finally the story of Ben Reilly, and what kind of man he will choose to be. Which has really been his kind of story since the beginning.

[Pav]

Zero, I agree with much of what you said. I just read through the issue again, and what stuck out to me this time was the revelation that Ben clearly didn't value his life as one should - hence his willingness to give it up so easily in trade. But the understanding that he can redeem his soul allowed him to turn the corner and, yes, feel closer to the Ben of old.

Man! What a ride so far.

-Pav, who is ready for more...

[Minerboh]

Nein10char.

Care to translate?

[Spiderfang]

Care to translate?

If you'd read the issue you'd know the answer very easily to that question (concerning Kaine & Abigail).

[Kurolegacy]

You know, it just occurred to me but Ben is gonna have to dye his hair again or do something with his appearance for his own sake. Depending on where in the MU timeline the series takes place in the next arc Peter Parker is in troubles with Parker Industries due to both Clone Conspiracy and Secret Empire. Now that Ben's face is healed, he looks exactly like Peter so it'd be bad to have attention drawn to him because of what's going on with Peter.

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

You know, it just occurred to me but Ben is gonna have to dye his hair again or do something with his appearance for his own sake. Depending on where in the MU timeline the series takes place in the next arc Peter Parker is in troubles with Parker Industries due to both Clone Conspiracy and Secret Empire. Now that Ben's face is healed, he looks exactly like Peter so it'd be bad to have attention drawn to him because of what's going on with Peter.

Yup. Probably doesn't help that he's calling himself "Peter," either.

[Minerboh]

If you'd read the issue you'd know the answer very easily to that question (concerning Kaine & Abigail).

Well... Since i live in Greece and the new releases take an entire month to come to my hands from the moment they are out that's is a major issue.
So... i DO NOT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. Hence the question.

[Huntsman Spider]

Well... Since i live in Greece and the new releases take an entire month to come to my hands from the moment they are out that's is a major issue.
So... i DO NOT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. Hence the question.

Understandable. To make a long story short, Ben met Death. Death told Ben that he f***ed up and that he was f***ed up, largely because being killed and resurrected so many times by Miles Warren not only traumatized him to the point of insanity, it also damaged his soul. However, Death also told Ben that he had a chance to redeem himself, to restore his soul and be the man he once was, and that he shouldn't waste it. Ben tried to barter his life for Kaine's and Abigail's (as Abigail waking up at all turned out to be Death's doing as well) and when Death refused, Ben went a bit more nuts than usual and tried to jump Death in the hopes of getting himself killed. However, Death took pity on Ben and not only restored Kaine's and Abigail's lives, she also healed the disfiguring scars left behind from clone degeneration, so Ben and Kaine's only problem in going out unmasked is that they look exactly like Peter Parker. That's the long and short of it.