The Return of the REAL Marvel Universe is underway at last...

[Rogue Star]

Yeah, witches exist.

[skyvolt2000]

Ya know, bigots actually do exist. Witches, not so much.

Define witch will ya?

How about this: You can have your precious old white dudes, and in return, you stop bitching about Marvel's "SJW agenda." Sound fair?

You KNOW that will not happen.

It hasn't happen with X-Men fans.

They don't want those guys around period. Because they are forever competition.

If you're going to tell me that X-23 wasn't embraced by readers, I'm gonna have to die laughing, doubly so in a post-Logan world.

She was welcomed from day ONE. Her run in Wolverine and that movie put her over the top and if it wasn't for Fox movie rights-who KNOWS where she would be now.

If any X-Men movie rights should be fought for aside from Logan or Deadpool-it's HER.

Besides, sometimes a legacy character will speak more to some readers than the original did.

In a lot of cases there are stories that can only be done with them versus the other person. Not that the Rage story line in Sam's book couldn't be done with Steve-I think the message would be different.

[Alhazred]

I don't care if they are white, black, their sex or sexual orientation. As long as they are well written you can have a good story with almost every background.

But... Could Marvel stop having two of everything? Two wolverines, two Iron mans, two Captains, two Thors, a bunch of spidermans... Pick one, whichever, and go with it. Maybe if they relaunch with a clear character and story I could be interested.

[Tiamatty]

You KNOW that will not happen.

It hasn't happen with X-Men fans.

They don't want those guys around period. Because they are forever competition.

Yep. I know. We will ALWAYS have people, on here and elsewhere, bitching about Marvel's "SJW agenda." People online are bitching about Superman defending unregistered immigrants, as though the character isn't an unregistered immigrant.

I don't care if they are white, black, their sex or sexual orientation. As long as they are well written you can have a good story with almost every background.

But... Could Marvel stop having two of everything? Two wolverines, two Iron mans, two Captains, two Thors, a bunch of spidermans... Pick one, whichever, and go with it. Maybe if they relaunch with a clear character and story I could be interested.

No. Two of everything. Hell, why stop at two? Four Captain Americas. 10 Hulks. 50 Stilt-Mans.

Let people pick and choose the flavour they like. It's what freedom's all about! 'Murica!

[Rincewind]

Define witch will ya?

The cavorting with Satan types that witchhunters were looking for when they went around burning/hanging people.

[Bor]

Creators have openly stated violence should be enacted (up to and including killing) upon "Nazis" that have committed no violence themselves
Those some creators have then gone on to paint WIDE swaths of fans as Nazis
That is an overt threat of violence if you are paying attention to what they say, if not a death threat

Creators have accused fans of being misogynist supporters of rape culture and rape apologists. That is implicitly saying they "condone rape" (BTW, it's ironic that you'd mention fans telling creators they "condone rape"...I seem to remember that those people flying off the handle about things like Spider-Woman covers or Joker on a Batgirl cover being a certain...type. Hmm...)

The most prominent creator at Marvel called a huge group of people (including elderly women) evil and racist.

To address the other part of your argument about preponderance of incidence...

If that is 1000 people doing these things AGAINST creators out of HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of fans...versus DOZENS of creators behaving like this out of HUNDREDS...that would strongly suggest that the creators have become far more toxic in nature, no?

I mean...simple statistics.

If you actually think what creators have done comes even a little close to the same amount you are crazy. So no I dont agree with your view at all.

[TheFerg714]

It's demonstrable that Marvel has always embodied left leaning politic beliefs for the most part and has never shied away from wearing those politics on their sleeve - this is going way the back to the '60s in comics written by Stan himself. Whatever Marvel is doing today is in line with what they've always done.

Left-leaning politics is different than progressivism. Seeing one race as more deserving of something than another race is identity politics, and as far as I'm aware, Marvel didn't really prescribe to that idea too heavily until very recently when it became overrun by sjw's.

It also ignores the fact that actual politics are largely absent from current books. If someone's definition of SJW politics being shoved down their throat means any book with a female or POC, then, sorry, but Marvel is always going to be too far to the left for them.

What more evidence do you need than to see Marvel's weird obsession with replacing their white male characters with characters who aren't that? It looks like an overtly political move to capitalize on the virtue signaling leftists on the internet to me.

Most of the talk around Dark Matter has revolved around the topic of diversity.

https://www.newsarama.com/34157-dive...ess-event.html

Most of? Really? I just typed in "Dark Matter DC Newsarama" into Google, and there was nothing about diversity on the first page of results. Here's the first four articles that came up, which have absolutely nothing to do with diversity.
https://www.newsarama.com/34140-dc-t...er-titles.html
https://www.newsarama.com/35529-sdcc...rk-matter.html
https://www.newsarama.com/35545-dc-s...e-at-2-99.html
https://www.newsarama.com/34220-dc-s...the-clues.html

And the link you provided was quite the opposite of what you're claiming. First of all, "the topic of diversity was an obvious hot-button issue thanks to recent comments by Marvel Senior VP of Sales." Secondly, DC went to great lengths to explain their intent with diversifying their line:
Newsarama- "with DiDio calling the process "organic," and Lee saying there was "no mandate" for the diversity of the cast."
John Romita- "There's a cynical side to this, to your point," said Romita. "Why are you creating these characters just to add more diversity when everyone knows you're doing that?"
"If somebody had taken the Punisher, and made him female instead of who he is now - Frank Castle is now Francine Castle - that would piss me off. We've got two choices - well, three, but we're not doing any transgenders just yet. I just don't think of this as diversity, I think of it as just a new character. I think it's great to have a new character. I just don't look at is a diversity thing, because there have been great female characters and great characters of color through the decades."
Dan DiDio- "We have to be more fearless in what we do - but rather than taking risks with existing characters and upsetting people, let's create new stuff and bring new people in."
Romita- "One of the reasons it doesn't work is when you take a character that everyone's known for a long time, and because we want to create that diversity, you say 'I'm just gonna change this... That's force-fitting, it's retrofitting, and it never works comfortably. The idea is to create new characters...to be judged on their own merit."

And from the CBR article that came out the same day.
CBR- "but many of them stressed the idea that more diverse characters would come not from a mandate but from the organic process of artists making stories in the 21st century."
Dan Abnett- “I don’t think of it as a diversity item. I think of it as a new character.”
CBR- "DiDio said that at this first phase of expansion, DC was “Counting on folks who have a track record to do this for us.” The publisher is betting that big name artists who have already move big numbers in comic shops will give Dark Matter its best chance for initial success. But that doesn’t mean a more diverse roster of creators won’t be coming onto DC titles and even Dark Matter titles in the future."

If you're going to have an alternate version or a Legacy version of a white male character, it stands to reason that you'd want to go with a different ethnicity or gender or both.

Why? Do you have something against white people?

Why replace a white guy with another white guy? Especially in today's more diverse world. It's not about being obsessed with diversity, it's about recognizing it as a normal aspect of the modern world. What would be weird would be to deliberately avoid embracing it.

That's fine, but it's a little annoying to long-time fans (and fans of the movies and TV shows) that Marvel "recognizing [diversity] as a normal aspect of the modern world" means "belittling old characters and replacing them because of identity politics."

Not all of the audience does feel like it's being force fed to them.

A good chunk does, and it's been continually growing for the last decade or so. Why do you think Marvel has gotten so much backlash this year?

Marvel never released a press statement about diversity not selling.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/marvel-vp-bla...ump-1793921500
Marvel VP of Sales David Gabriel- "We saw the sales of any character that was diverse, any character that was new, our female characters, anything that was not a core Marvel character, people were turning their nose up against."

This statement, in itself, is Marvel releasing a statement about diversity not selling. To not think so is to drift so far into semantics-land that it's impossible to have a conversation with you.

And it's very telling that you think that's not the case. Do you think any fan has ever gotten a death threat from a creator?

And how many mysterious fans do you think are sending death threats? A few? The problem is that Marvel, Heather Antos, the milkshake crew, and every other Twitter crybaby freaks out about a minuscule fraction of their critics and then lumps every detractor into the same boat.
I thought the point of a comic company was to make money. If a worker at McDonalds was caught calling a customer a nazi, they would be fired, but yet Marvel pros just can't help themselves.

Sorry, but that's the denial that bigots typically practice. "Racism is so exaggerated!" "Racism doesn't exist!"

For someone who doesn't want to be pegged as racist or sexist, you do an awfully good job of sounding like you might be one.

If you think that's unfair, all we have to go by is the opinions you express and the manner in which you express them.

Sorry, but that's the denial that leftist ideologues typically practice. "White people are bigots!" Everyone's a racist!"

For someone who doesn't want to be pegged as a leftist ideologue, you do an awfully good job of sounding like you might be one.

If you think that's unfair, all we have to go by is the opinions you express and the manner in which you express them.

When someone has such a problem with diversity, what else are people supposed to think? And if you say it isn't about diversity in one breath and then say how much of a problem diversity is in the other, the latter tends to cancel out the former.

There's only so many ways I can say this, so here's as simple as I can put it:
1. There's nothing wrong with diversity.
2. Using diversity as a political tool to gain the eyes of progressives, sjw's, leftists, BLM supporters, and feminists is annoying.
3. I have a problem with using this political tool by screwing with beloved, classic characters because of they have the wrong skin color, gender, or sexuality.
4. Diversity and political influences are hardly the biggest problem, but they are symptomatic of a larger issue, which is Marvel's infestation of leftists ideologues.

[The Negative Zone]

People should judge legacy characters of their own merits and not filter them with their personal bias because
1. Legacy character might be "stronger" or "smarter" than the original
2. Original character has been "taken away" or "belittled"
If these things truly "offend" you I think its time some of you take a step back. You're letting this get to you way too much.

[TheFerg714]

Jessica & Simon are in Justice League because of who their CREATOR and the is the same guy with POWER in DC. Same guy who is pushing Duke Thomas-when King didn't want to tell that story in Dark Metal.

So....?

Funny it's an issue with Miles, Khan & Sam in Avengers but how many X-kids got to be X-Men and on the main roster like Kitty & Jubliee.

I have a problem with those three being Avengers (although I did buy ANAD Avengers 1-3) because a) Avengers has never really been a team of children, and b) there's many other A-listers that need to be in the core Avengers team. X-Men has a precedent for kids on their teams. Miles, Khamala, and Sam belong on the Champions. That was a good move on Marvel's part.

Dark Matter is diversity at the expense of the already established POC-who are victims of dislike by either fans or management or both like John Stewart.

There's plenty of POC's still in play at DC, and quite a few females.

Not sure what you're going on about with John Stewart, but he was a main character all throughout the Green Lantern franchise during the New 52, and he's still a major player today in 'Hal Jordan.'

If folks have a legit argument with Marvel-talk about EVERYTHING including all those low selling white male lead books that unlike Moon Girl, Mosaic, Scarlet Witch and Sam Wilson didn't make issue 7.

Most Marvel detractors (including me) have in fact mentioned that diversity is hardly the #1 problem, and isn't the only factor in regards to sales.

If folks had FACTS instead of made up stuff like all of the editors are white under 25 females with no degrees-you get called that.

I apologize for not doing my research on that claim, but honestly, almost every Marvel comic I open up has a female assistant editor. And then when you see things like "the milkshake crew" on Twitter that all look like your standard Tumbrlinas, it starts to look like textbook affirmative action nonsense. I think my reasoning was fine, however I didn't have evidence to back up that claim, so I shouldn't have even brought it up.

If politics are all in these Marvel books-LINE of every book and lets go page by page, issue by issue and point them out

MS. MARVEL Is SJW Propaganda On Almost Every Page

Can someone state what is bad about America Chavez without attacking Gabby?

Why Marvel's America sucks so much. Part 1.

If Dc does diversity right-why are the numbers so bad? Why are they fighting back with new guys that NO ONE wants when you got plenty of fan favorites of color in limbo. And why are the two must HATED characters in DC that get threads about them two black males named Wally & Duke? If Dc is perfect-why are there complaints?

DC's not perfect. But they're a helluva a lot better than Marvel... at literally everything.

As long as POC, LGBT & women are the main targets of this Marvel bashing-you get that bigot calling card.

There's plenty more to complain about in regards to Marvel... constant events and relaunches, expensive books, low-quality art, etc, etc.

And LOGIC has to come into play-if you don't like it-why keep talking about it? And giving it more attention? Especially DC.

Because I have a problem with the way Marvel is destroying my favorite storytelling medium.

[JackDaw]

People should judge legacy characters of their own merits and not filter them with their personal bias because
1. Legacy character might be "stronger" or "smarter" than the original
2. Original character has been "taken away" or "belittled"
If these things truly "offend" you I think its time some of you take a step back. You're letting this get to you way too much.

But how many of the new characters are "legacy" characters in any meaningful sense? If you look at classic model in mainstream super hero comics...Wally West..he served a long apprenticeship with Barry, had clear and close links for many years...and taking over main role in fullness of time was logical, a completely natural progression.

In Marvel's case in most (not all!) cases that long apprenticeship , close connection, and logical progression simply isn't there. Many of the new characters might better be called "clones". Or mayhap there's a better term...but they are not really legacy characters.

[Ianbarreilles]

But how many of the new characters are "legacy" characters in any meaningful sense? If you look at classic model in mainstream super hero comics...Wally West..he served a long apprenticeship with Barry, had clear and close links for many years...and taking over main role in fullness of time was logical, a completely natural progression.

In Marvel's case in most (not all!) cases that long apprenticeship , close connection, and logical progression simply isn't there. Many of the new characters might better be called "clones". Or mayhap there's a better term...but they are not really legacy characters.

I think most of them are from miles morales/spider-man, Kate bishop/Hawkeye, kamala khan/ms.marvel, Laura Kinney/wolverine, all of them are very effective as legacy characters and are for the most part very successfully revived by fans and have become very popular among fans and lastly they're very well written and relatable and very likeable characters.

And it's also important to note that most to all of the legacy characters I listed have a very important and deep close connection and relationship with their predecessors.

[JackDaw]

I think most of them are from miles morales/spider-man, Kate bishop/Hawkeye, kamala khan/ms.marvel, Laura Kinney/wolverine, all of them are very effective as legacy characters and are for the most part very successfully revived by fans and have become very popular among fans and lastly they're very well written and relatable and very likeable characters.

And it's also important to note that most to all of the legacy characters I listed have a very important and deep close connection and relationship with their predecessors.

Do they really? Ultimately nowadays I don't read enough Marvel to be "dogmatic" on this...and ultimately happy to accept your view if you're really confident on that point.

But I'll put in a challenge in the couple of cases where I've read a lot of the relevant comics: Ms Marvel and Miles.

Ms Marvel had a deep admiration for Captain Marvel...and really no real connection beyond that. Different powers, different origin, no long apprenticeship with Capt, no real expectation that she will ever take over Carol's particular role. I don't see her as a legacy character at all..nor in this case..a clone. She's an original, all the better for it..if the Marvel name sells a few more comics, all the better..but there's really nothing there remotely like Wally West growing into a specific role.

Miles? Again...all there is is Miles deep admiration before Miles became an hero. Peter didn't train him, powers are different, etc. Miles could equally have been called "Sting" as his super hero name..but that wouldn't sell as many comics. Again..for me..not a convincing legacy hero if Wally West is taken as standard template.

[TheFerg714]

Do they really? Ultimately nowadays I don't read enough Marvel to be "dogmatic" on this...and ultimately happy to accept your view if you're really confident on that point.

But I'll put in a challenge in the couple of cases where I've read a lot of the relevant comics: Ms Marvel and Miles.

Ms Marvel had a deep admiration for Captain Marvel...and really no real connection beyond that. Different powers, different origin, no long apprenticeship with Capt, no real expectation that she will ever take over Carol's particular role. I don't see her as a legacy character at all..nor in this case..a clone. She's an original, all the better for it..if the Marvel name sells a few more comics, all the better..but there's really nothing there remotely like Wally West growing into a specific role.

Miles? Again...all there is is Miles deep admiration before Miles became an hero. Peter didn't train him, powers are different, etc. Miles could equally have been called "Sting" as his super hero name..but that wouldn't sell as many comics. Again..for me..not a convincing legacy hero if Wally West is taken as standard template.

Agreed. I'm also not very knowledgable about Ms. Marvel, but I haven't got the feeling, from what I've read, that she has much of a connection with Danvers.

I'm very knowledgeable about Miles though, and no, Peter and Miles don't have some deep and meaningful relationship. Peter's barely played a role at all in Miles' superhero career actually.

[Tiamatty]

Because I have a problem with the way Marvel is destroying my favorite storytelling medium.

This is absolute nonsense. Comics, as a medium, are doing fine. Comics, as a medium, saw sales increase in 2016. If there's a drop this year, well, there's a whole host of factors, few of which have anything to do with Marvel (or, indeed, with any of the publishers). Comics, as a medium, are constantly improving, in every conceivable way. Webcomics and Kickstarter are allowing for an incredible amount of new talent, creators who would NEVER get on the radar of any major publisher, to get their work out their and read, and to make enough money off their work to make it their full-time careers.

The comics industry is thriving. Comics, as a medium, have NEVER been more rewarding.

(Worth noting that the people benefiting most from the current state of the medium are women and POC. The mainstream comics industry has always had issues with that, have always had institutionalized obstructions that made it more difficult for women and POC to break in. The mainstream publishers still have those problems - Marvel, DC, Image, Dark Horse, IDW, Valiant - but it's easier than ever for someone to make a career outside those publishers, and women and POC are making phenomenal use of those opportunities. Which, of course, a lot of people hate. So you get things like the #DrawingWhileBlack or #latinoHispanicartist hashtags on Twitter, where POC promote the fantastic work they do, and white dudes jump in to ask why the tags are necessary. Usually, the same white dudes who say that if POC don't like the comics out there, to make their own. Perusing tags like that is actually a great reminder that the comics medium is doing just fine.)

[TheFerg714]

This is absolute nonsense. Comics, as a medium, are doing fine. Comics, as a medium, saw sales increase in 2016. If there's a drop this year, well, there's a whole host of factors, few of which have anything to do with Marvel (or, indeed, with any of the publishers). Comics, as a medium, are constantly improving, in every conceivable way. Webcomics and Kickstarter are allowing for an incredible amount of new talent, creators who would NEVER get on the radar of any major publisher, to get their work out their and read, and to make enough money off their work to make it their full-time careers.

Sure, sales have grown by an infinitesimal amount, by I suppose that's a good sign. Marvel sure isn't doing anything to help the industry.

The comics industry is thriving. Comics, as a medium, have NEVER been more rewarding.

Well that's silly. Comics are headlined by the by and away the most popular genre of our time.. superheroes. Mainstream comics should be selling in the 100k range, not 20k. Sales were better during the crash than they are now. I'm not saying imminent death is around the corner, but there are definitely some changes that need to be made in order to sustain a healthy industry.