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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    Even if he could escape culpability for Vegas, which as the guy in charge he really can't, there was plenty of stuff done by Hydra which he did approve of and order, ranging from concentration camps to executions to invasions of non-hostile sovereign nations, none of which would have been in any way justified even had his memories of a different world been completely genuine. From the attempted murder of Jack Flag on, he's really proven to be a person who shouldn't have another day of freedom.
    Moral culpability in the real world, and comics, are two very different creatures, especially in serial fiction. I'm not arguing that Stevil wouldn't be legally responsible for Hydra's acts, in verse and out.

    But rather, I'm arguing, what are his crimes, that he personally undertook and ordered, that make him so vile?

    Take Rick Jones. They imply that it was Hydra who ordered his death, and Stevil simply doesn't stop it. Same with Vegas, and to a lesser extent, Jack Flagg. Yes, Cap maimed Jack and his actions led to his death, but before he could pull any trigger (figuratively), Jack's family takes him off life support.

    It's his crimes of inaction that frankly lead me to believe that two Caps was a last minute decision. Stevil never personally crossed any moral event horizon, did he?

  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    He was an entity with an entirely new history, not a brainwashed Steve. And he had free will to react to circumstances as he choose to.
    I think the part about God and Judgment explains Kobik and Stevil well


  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    As mentioned in this exact issue, as well as previously, the SHIELD Act had apparently made the head of SHIELD not just the boss of that organization, nor even just in charge of the defense of US/the Earth, but actually the (presumably meant to be temporary) head of the entire US government under martial law, usurping both POTUS and the roles of both the legislature and the judiciary. That would seem to have a been a few steps too far, and well beyond the usual powers of the Director of SHIELD.
    Given the scale of the alien invasion, greater than the Annihilation Wave (show, not tell, Spencer) that crushed several Galactic empires, it's not as if there wasn't a need for drastic action. And making the wrong decision, in the heat of the moment, means humanity needs to be punished?

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by InformationGeek View Post
    I dunno. Feels half-assed to Kobik to just not fix all of the problems caused by HydraCap. Sure, you could say "where does it stop then?", but how are any of those things her fault? She has no duty to fix that stuff. Shouldn't she at least fix the problems she caused?
    Yeah I mean SHE created Hydra Cap so those problems are HER fault. Those situations would never have occurred if SHE hadn't done what she did. So really who is she to decide to "teach" everyone else a lesson so to speak, by leaving the effects of the situation she created?

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    No, that was Steve's choice. She may have created him but she didn't force his hand.
    She created him as HYDRA, Hydra is evil. It was always going to be a natural consequences of creating him to be Hydra, because he was in the best position(not because of his Hydra self but because of his real self before stuck of Hydra fanfic version in his place) to make what Hydra has always basically wanted in one form or another, whatever faction, happen. He didn't choose that, she did. She "wrote" him that way. That it didn't turned out how she hoped doesn't relieve her of responsibility.

    All those people don't deserve to stay dead because she screwed up.

  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Moral culpability in the real world, and comics, are two very different creatures, especially in serial fiction. I'm not arguing that Stevil wouldn't be legally responsible for Hydra's acts, in verse and out.

    But rather, I'm arguing, what are his crimes, that he personally undertook and ordered, that make him so vile?

    Take Rick Jones. They imply that it was Hydra who ordered his death, and Stevil simply doesn't stop it. Same with Vegas, and to a lesser extent, Jack Flagg. Yes, Cap maimed Jack and his actions led to his death, but before he could pull any trigger (figuratively), Jack's family takes him off life support.

    It's his crimes of inaction that frankly lead me to believe that two Caps was a last minute decision. Stevil never personally crossed any moral event horizon, did he?
    He was in charge, the buck stopped at his desk, so he passed that moral event horizon just as much as if he'd actually pulled the trigger.

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    This is the moment where we have to take our in-universe goggles off and try to see things from an off-universe perspective. Kobik is NOT the only reality warper in the Marvel Universe. As a matter of fact, we do have multiple heroes who could just as easily fix a bunch of these same things. Heroes that have existed for YEARS now. And yet, we can only assume they choose not to do anything. Their powers are only ever used in full capacity when it fits the narrative the writer wants to tell (Scarlet Witch on Disassembled/HOM, for instance). So, are all of them selfish? Or maybe we just have to deal with the fact that in a world with such OP heroes, some writers HAVE to choose to not to let them be an Ex Deus Machina all the time so the story will actually have a point? Because what even would be the need for superhero stories AT ALL if you can just gather Kobik, Scarlet Witch, Wiccan, Franklin Richards, etc, in a corner and just let them never let anything bad happen to anything or anyone ever again for the rest of times? Who would even want to read a story like that? So the answer is basically suspension of disbelief. You HAVE to do that in order to enjoy comics. Applying too much logic to them will never work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    Well it wasn't really the heroes' choice to let it stick. Kobik is a sentient being and chose to let it stick.
    A sentient being with a mentality of a little kid, may I add.
    Last edited by Drops Of Venus; 09-13-2017 at 06:03 PM.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    But that entire new history, crafted by Kobik's reality-warping, informed the decisions he'd make so that he would lean in a way that served Hydra.

    Which it did.

    Exactly SHE created him, she wrote him like a character. She created the situations that shaped him SO he would be shaped that way. That she didn't see the consequences it would lead to doesn't mean she didn't do it. The only time Stevil actually had free will was during these last 15 months or however long the event lasted in universe(not sure if it's the same?). The other 30 some-odd years of his life were created for him by Kobik. She created his history for the purpose of making him, at the point she "brought him forth", completely loyal to Hydra's ideas.
    Last edited by Alpha Storm; 09-13-2017 at 05:53 PM.

  9. #54
    Extraordinary Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Given the scale of the alien invasion, greater than the Annihilation Wave (show, not tell, Spencer) that crushed several Galactic empires, it's not as if there wasn't a need for drastic action. And making the wrong decision, in the heat of the moment, means humanity needs to be punished?
    I don't know that the mass of humanity needs to be punished for anything other than what they themselves did (which if they turned neighbors over to be taken to concentration camps, would still be quite a bit of punishment, mind you).

    However, on the details of Stevil's authority, I don't see how putting a person in charge of the armed and superhuman forces for a specific conflict, requires them to exercise martial law over the civilian population, especially when it was an invasion from space that triggered the use of the SHIELD Act. Especially not in what was apparently an irrevocable way, otherwise as soon as Stevil revealed himself as Hydra, POTUS or Congress could have revoked his powers and told him to stand down, with the entire US military oathbound to go after him if he failed to follow the order.

  10. #55
    Mighty Member Johnny Peril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    Natasha is likely alive. so there really weren't too many consequences. I won't miss Rick Jones, Jack Flag, and the scores of unnamed Vegas tourists; just haven't been made to care about them.
    You forgot about one of your favorite characters, Nighthawk.
    "Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy... and we shall have peace."

  11. #56
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    "Remember Las Vegas" .
    "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas."

  12. #57
    Extraordinary Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    This is the moment where we have to take our in-universe goggles off and try to see things from an off-universe perspective. Kobik is NOT the only reality warper in the Marvel Universe. As a matter of fact, we do have multiple heroes who could just as easily fix a bunch of these same things. Heroes that have existed for YEARS now. And yet, we can only assume they choose not to do anything. Their powers are only ever used in full capacity when it fits the narrative the writer wants to tell (Scarlet Witch on Disassembled/HOM, for instance). So, are all of them selfish? Or maybe we just have to deal with the fact that in a world with such OP heroes, some writers HAVE to choose to not to let them be an Ex Deus Machina all the time so the story will actually have a point? Because what even would be the need for superhero stories AT ALL if you can just gather Kobik, Scarlet Witch, Wiccan, Franklin Richards, etc, in a corner and just let them never let anything bad happen to anything or anyone ever again for the rest of times? Who would even want to read a story like that? So the answer is basically suspension of disbelief. You HAVE to do that in order to enjoy comics. Applying too much logic to them will never work.



    A sentient being with a mentality of a little kid, may I add.
    No, everything requires an in-universe as well as an external explanation.

    Unless Deadpool, Gwenpool, or She-Hulk announce they're doing something because that's how they're written, I guess. But everyone else? They have to have reasons for their actions that would make sense to them, not just to the writers and readers.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    He was in charge, the buck stopped at his desk, so he passed that moral event horizon just as much as if he'd actually pulled the trigger.
    Morally, yes.

    But character wise, it's pretty boring. His action are in-actions, and that doesn't work as a villain.

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    No, everything requires an in-universe as well as an external explanation.

    Unless Deadpool, Gwenpool, or She-Hulk announce they're doing something because that's how they're written, I guess. But everyone else? They have to have reasons for their actions that would make sense to them, not just to the writers and readers.
    Yes, but in those cases, in-universes explanations will NEVER satisfy some readers because they will NEVER be realistic or convincing enough. Case in point: this thread. Like I said, there are multiple reality warpers in the MU who could be doing what the thread is questioning. Should we create threads for them too? Should we start an argument everytime the Scarlet Witch appears in a comic book and she doesn't end world hunger even though she has the power to? If you don't turn your mind off of those kind of things sometimes, you will NEVER truly enjoy a comic book for what it is: a very unrealistic form of entertainment.
    Last edited by Drops Of Venus; 09-13-2017 at 08:00 PM.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Moral culpability in the real world, and comics, are two very different creatures, especially in serial fiction. I'm not arguing that Stevil wouldn't be legally responsible for Hydra's acts, in verse and out.

    But rather, I'm arguing, what are his crimes, that he personally undertook and ordered, that make him so vile?

    Take Rick Jones. They imply that it was Hydra who ordered his death, and Stevil simply doesn't stop it. Same with Vegas, and to a lesser extent, Jack Flagg. Yes, Cap maimed Jack and his actions led to his death, but before he could pull any trigger (figuratively), Jack's family takes him off life support.

    It's his crimes of inaction that frankly lead me to believe that two Caps was a last minute decision. Stevil never personally crossed any moral event horizon, did he?
    The two Steves was not a last minute decision. The story would never have been embarked on in the first place without the outcome being in place, especially when it concerns the legacy of one of Marvel's cornerstone icons. This is not a case where they would just see where the chips fell. Modern comics are mapped out well ahead of time. There's too many moving parts in a shared universe for that not to be the case. And there's too much invested in the long term health of these characters to start a story where Steve has suddenly become a fascist without knowing well before the first issue hits what the endgame is.

    That Stevil didn't directly cause some of the big deaths in SE I believe was part of the misdirection of the story. We want to believe, as Rick Jones does, that the "real Steve" is in there somewhere and that he will prevail. Having Stevil not get too much blood on his hands was a way to lead the audience down that same road - to think that, hey, maybe a part of him is fighting this. But that was never the case. It was never going to be about him making a last minute turn.

    But whether he directly caused those deaths, he was certainly responsible in his own way and did nothing to prevent them, which he easily could've done. Charles Manson never killed anyone either but no one ever thinks of him as not being thoroughly evil.

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