Kobik: Were the Heroes Selfish Not Using Her to Restore People?

[Dayguard]

Technically, the Red Skull caused Secret Empire by teaching Kobik, a reality warper with the mental acuity of a child, that Hydra is the best thing ever. To a lesser extent, Maria Hill also contributed by capturing Kobik and creating Pleasant Hill. It definitely wasn't the fault of the heroes, but I could totally see Kobik being pissed off at humanity in general for using her so much and then screwing it up. A child would probably just high tail it out there after throwing a tantrum.

Also, didn't Hydra Cap get those Chitauri eggs just so the invasion would happen? Not a moral event horizon, but that's pretty messed up.

[JKtheMac]

hey its not my reasoning but the explanation nick himself provided so you should grasp it clauses or no clauses. Nock was the one who wrote the overcomplicated alternate reality scenario where there was one true cap that is hydra cap and it being reset to being a tale reality that was reset at the point cached cap took out hydra cap yet essentially everything happens expect everyone is knowing one is a true cap and one is a doppelganger when actually it could be argued neither is essentially real.

I don't see a complicated story. I see lots of people trying to make it complicated to justify their own opinions on Spencer and Marvel. Sure a lot goes on, but this is a ten issue story plus a zero issue, FCBD issue, an Omega issue and a Cap issue that they shifted some of the story to. That's 13 and a bit issues, many of which were oversized.

A lot of incident, but nothing overly complex. Just a story about two Captains America and a hunt for some cosmic cube fragments.

[JKtheMac]

she cause the secret empire problem, so at least fix it. you broke, you fix

She is a cosmic cube with the emotions and understanding of a child. She also made a call on what to do. She clearly doesn't think fixing things is the right call. She got into this mess listening to people she trusted telling her what to do. All she was prepared to do was reverse what she did. Who is she supposed to trust on what to do? She clearly trusts Steve, and in the Omega issue he can see the benefits of this situation.

None of this is Kobik's fault. The culprit is dead (supposedly). A reset back to day one would theoretically bring him back to life, not to mention throw away the last two years of Marvel continuity. Realistically that was never an option. It would have been laughed out of the office at the pitch stage.

[vitruvian]

In your opinion. You do seem to have more of a 'realism' expectation than many of us. I really don't want to have the same arguments I was having in the eighties all over again. Realism is for other media, superhero comics are not even pretending to be real. The one time they went down this rabbit hole they totally lost my interest. It is highly probable that modern comics won't suit your expectations. That isn't a problem that is a choice. One I fully support, but recognise is not what everyone wants.

In my opinion, based on reading a lot of fantastic fiction over the years. There's absolutely no reason that superhuman characters in comic books can't be written with 'realistic' characterization just as well as any of, say, Octavia Butler's characters with similar superhuman abilities were handled in her novels; no reason Ororo can't be written as well as Anyanwu.... other than whether the writers have the ability and desire to do so.

But bottom line, regardless of how many godlike powers and reality warps and superscience devices and magical beasts and spells may exist in a story, if the characters' actions don't make sense in terms of their personalities and motivations within the world of the story... if the only explanation for them is that the writer needed them to act that way in order to advance the plot... that is bad writing.

[protege]

True.

But the whole idea put forth, that 'there needs be some lesson', is pure BS.

Up until he turned, no one really had any reason to suspect Cap (save Coulson). In an emergency (that Cap engineered), Cap was given the authority to handle it, as per normal. Hell, Shield only turned because they were all mind controlled.

And Vegas? They were punished because people *fought back*. Those aren't the people who needed to learn any lesson.

Speaking of coulson, is he really dead too?

[JKtheMac]

But bottom line, regardless of how many godlike powers and reality warps and superscience devices and magical beasts and spells may exist in a story, if the characters' actions don't make sense in terms of their personalities and motivations within the world of the story... if the only explanation for them is that the writer needed them to act that way in order to advance the plot... that is bad writing.

I am afraid writing quality is not measure this way. That is admittedly an expectation from many comic book readers brought up on late eighties and nineties expectations, but they are not the comics I admire and not the comics I would read today either. I want authentic character, visceral situations, moral dilemmas, aspiring heroes, and character struggle. Unfortunately a lot of that requires throwing out some things that people insist are central to comics. What will be will be, but right now Marvel seem to be on the track I approve of.

[DurararaFTW]

She is a cosmic cube with the emotions and understanding of a child. She also made a call on what to do. She clearly doesn't think fixing things is the right call. She got into this mess listening to people she trusted telling her what to do. All she was prepared to do was reverse what she did. Who is she supposed to trust on what to do? She clearly trusts Steve, and in the Omega issue he can see the benefits of this situation.

None of this is Kobik's fault. The culprit is dead (supposedly). A reset back to day one would theoretically bring him back to life, not to mention throw away the last two years of Marvel continuity. Realistically that was never an option. It would have been laughed out of the office at the pitch stage.

Actually, she got into this mess trusting her own judgement, before that of her SHIELD handlers, no one told her brainwashing people into Hydra pawns was a good idea before she started doing it. She came up with that one all by herself. Not bringing back the people her actions costs the lives off is also her trusting her own judgement before that of literally anyone else. And she brought back Steve with her reality warping powers. She can bring back anyone and anything she wants without erasing the events that transpired since their deaths. She just decided to not.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Actually, she got into this mess trusting her own judgement, before that of her SHIELD handlers, no one told her brainwashing people into Hydra pawns was a good idea before she started doing it. She came up with that one all by herself. Not bringing back the people her actions costs the lives off is also her trusting her own judgement before that of literally anyone else. And she brought back Steve with her reality warping powers. She can bring back anyone and anything she wants without erasing the events that transpired since their deaths. She just decided to not.

Yeah, pretty much.

And really, Kubik acting as some greater metaphorical messenger is BS, given that Cap's turn to fascism was done completely in secret and when he revealed himself, he started ruling through the barrel of a gun.

[vitruvian]

I am afraid writing quality is not measure this way. That is admittedly an expectation from many comic book readers brought up on late eighties and nineties expectations, but they are not the comics I admire and not the comics I would read today either. I want authentic character, visceral situations, moral dilemmas, aspiring heroes, and character struggle. Unfortunately a lot of that requires throwing out some things that people insist are central to comics. What will be will be, but right now Marvel seem to be on the track I approve of.

If you want authentic character, then you are agreeing with me, since having characters act out of writer fiat rather than out of their own in-universe motivations is inauthentic and not what you want.

[MajorHoy]

She fixed Steve.

Wait . . . Steve has been neutered?!?

[Prof. Warren]

Wait . . . Steve has been neutered?!?

Hahaha!! Well, I don't think Steve planned on having kids anyway!

As for Kobik not bringing back the dead, I just started re-reading Waid's Cap run and in #446, when Skull tells Steve that the Kubekultists are planning to use the Cube to resurrect Hitler, Steve states "What do they think they're doing? Even the Cube can't revive the dead!" To which Sharon tells him that Hitler isn't dead, that his consciousness has been preserved in the Cube.

So that lines up with Kobik's ability to bring Steve back but yet not return anyone else.

[Matternativ]

Well it wasn't really the heroes' choice to let it stick. Kobik is a sentient being and chose to let it stick.

This. At least that is how I saw it too.

I mean Bucky and Clint are soon out there to find out if Nat might still be alive. You think it would not have crossed their mind to tell Kobik to resurrect her given the choice?

[JKtheMac]

If you want authentic character, then you are agreeing with me, since having characters act out of writer fiat rather than out of their own in-universe motivations is inauthentic and not what you want.

No, I mean something very different by authentic, 'consistent with the past interpretations' precisely because many of those past interpretations were inauthentic. I recognise that there is no such thing as a truly "in-universe motivation" because this is a fictional universe. There is only verisimilitude, and that is not a good reason to write a boring story. Good stories from my perspective are very much driven by the motivations and desires of the characters, but I don't demand that the character's motivations and desires should remain constant.

[ZNOP]

Wasn't Steve Rogers genetically/biologically stripped of the Super Soldier serum? How did he get his chemical enhancements back and what book can I find it in?

[vitruvian]

No, I mean something very different by authentic, 'consistent with the past interpretations' precisely because many of those past interpretations were inauthentic. I recognise that there is no such thing as a truly "in-universe motivation" because this is a fictional universe. There is only verisimilitude, and that is not a good reason to write a boring story. Good stories from my perspective are very much driven by the motivations and desires of the characters, but I don't demand that the character's motivations and desires should remain constant.

Where did I state that their motivations and desires should remain constant? Characters in fiction and people IRL change all the time. Now, I do think that such changes are and should be generally explicable in terms of what has come before, but that doesn't mean they can't change, or even that such changes need to be gradual.

But if the only reason that the reader can see for why a character acts in a certain way is that the writer needs them to for purposes of advancing the plot, and there is no in-universe explanation that makes sense in terms of what has been set up with the character, the setting, and the situation (or that gets revealed later, as having seemingly inexplicable actions be a mystery to be explained and uncovered later in the story is certainly a valid storytelling technique), then yes, that is bad writing and inauthentic characterization.

Btw, you're right that the better term is verisimilitude rather than realism (I won't say correct, because the terms realism and realistic don't and never have meant 'actually real', even if that's how some people interpret them, so it is perfectly possible for fiction and paintings and so on to be realistic without anyone claiming that they are real things), but I have to disagree with your implication that verisimilitude and excitement are necessarily in opposition; I'm having real trouble thinking of an actual story where greater attention to verisimilitude has in itself led to a boring story. On the contrary, I find those stories where lots of characters are given no motivation, even implicit, for their actions beyond being 'the good guy', 'the bad guy', or some other fixed role in a simplistic plot, to be the really boring ones.