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  1. #1
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    Default Remo Williams Vs. Kenshiro (1st Volume)

    The Destroyer vs. the Fist of the North Star with the caveat that Kenshiro only gets his feats from the first volume of his manga. Can Remo Take him?

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    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    If it's only feats from the first volume, I'd say yeah, Remo can probably take this. That was before all the phasing stuff and such, IIRC. Remo will have a massive speed edge, and should be quite strong enough to do what he needs to do: including pressure points as they apply. If you add the later stuff, no chance, Kenshiro phases and eventually explodes Remo.

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    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    I'm trying to remember where volume one stops. I think it's when he beats Shin.

    I'll review the relevant chapters.
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    Okay, so it's the first eight chapters, culminating in him meeting Shin.

    I'll do a brief overview of what we're working with here.

    Chapter 1: Kenshiro cures mutism with pressure points, tears open a jail cell, makes a bunch of dudes eject their brains from their heads by kicking them all once in the jaw, speedblitzes Zeed with a the hundred crack fist and he explodes as well.

    Chapter 2: Does like a sweet front flip of a 40 foot cliff and lands in a handstand on a dude and breaks his neck. Dodges a crossbow bolt from almost point blank range, a second one is fired and he uses Nishi Shinku-ha to return into the eye of the guy who fired it.

    Chapter 3: First instance of Ken making his shirt explode due to sheer rage. Ken gets chained up by his arms between two big muscle dudes and an axe is thrown at him. Ken redirects it so it beheads muscle dude one. He then easily overpowers muscle dude two and then uses Gazan Ryozan-ha (Mountain Splitting Wave) to chi blast his face in half. Final guy tries to rush him and Ken breaks his nose before he realises what's happening, Ken then breaks/kind of explodes both his elbows and then uses Zankai Ken which is the "three seconds and you're dead," thing with his thumbs.

    Chapter 4: Fights Dia in this one. Dia is shown to be a bit beyond regular human. Ken actually starts the fight by throwing a head sized rock and hitting him in the mouth. Dia just eats the rock and laughs at this. He uses a giant metal staff and is shown to be able to pretty much paste normal guys with it while not even trying. He's all like "It's so fast you can't even follow it," Ken then stops it with one hand, comments that he was almost falling asleep at slow it was. He then lifts Dia's body on the other end of the pole with one hand, jumps up and does neck strike/knee to the face combo that causes Dia to be like "Oh no!" and then his head tears itself in half. Also, Kenshiro cuts thick rope just by whipping his hand through it. He also has his first instance of apparently getting a new shirt between chapters.

    Chapter 5: Fights Clover in this one mostly. A neat feat of him wiping someone's memory and putting them into a sort of trance state by touching them on the ears. He uses a pressure point on Clover's hands and makes his finger bones shoot out of his body. He then folds him over backwards and puts him on a time-based pressure point thing where his spine would would fold up and tear him in half. He also does a bit of stealthing around in the dark, reminding the audience that Kenshiro is technically an assassin.

    Chapter 6: Introduction of Mr Heart. He can splatter people by slapping them and is so fat that he can't apparently be hurt by spiky maces being winged at him. He's also crazy. Kenshiro crushes a pair of binoculars and jumps off an upper floor of a multistorey building. Quiet chapter.

    Chapter 7: Kenshiro fights Mr Heart. Takes a slap that smashes him into the stone floor. Is maybe woozy for a few seconds. Heart is shown to be immune to normal hits so Kenshiro does superspeed kicks to... oh boy, I always forget this happens... part the rolls of fat on his body and then taps him once with his hand and Heart explodes.

    Chapter 8: Mostly a flashback. Decent damage soak as Kenshiro loses to Shin in the past. He gets the joints in his arms and legs destroyed and then gets seven finger sized holes stabbed in his chest. He apparently walks this off. Strictly speaking, the events of the Hokuto no Ken 0 movie are meant to happen next but we're going strictly by the manga here. Shin tries to attack Ken in the present, fists going fast enough to make afterimages and Ken just catches his hand and is like "No."

    And that's what we're working with.

    I think he could give Remo some problems but ultimately advantage to the Sinanju practitioner. Better speed feats, more strength actually as well. Kenshiro remains very dangerous in HTH as, even this early, he can make people explode just by touching them but Remo should be able to take the majority.
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    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    One final note, it's a shame we don't get the next chapter to consider because Kenshiro gets some pretty decent speed feats there.

    He toys with Shin, gets four foot long slashes across his chest and apparently doesn't care, demonstrates afterimage movement, even when blindsided by another fighter he just dodges, touches the guy and he explodes, commenting that as an assassin he cannot be taken by surprise even if you don't make a sound when approaching him.

    He then Hundred Fists Shin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    If it's only feats from the first volume, I'd say yeah, Remo can probably take this. That was before all the phasing stuff and such, IIRC. Remo will have a massive speed edge, and should be quite strong enough to do what he needs to do: including pressure points as they apply. If you add the later stuff, no chance, Kenshiro phases and eventually explodes Remo.
    Lmao, nope.

    You can throw Kenshiro at his absolute best at Remo, and the Dead Night Tiger would have a hard counter for everything he can do.

    As the Reigning Master of Sinanju he has amassed a plethora of feats, and I will also mention Chiun's feats because Remo has since surpassed him.

    For evidence of that:

    In Look Into My Eyes we see Remo Williams defeat Chiun in a single move.

    https://i.imgur.com/5VM9ffD.png

    In Father to Son he becomes the Reigning Master of Sinanju. Chiun assumes the title of Great Teacher.

    https://i.imgur.com/OzA43RJ.png

    Now since that's been established I will begin. I will start with just how egregious the difference in speed here is.

    Starting with explosions and bullets?

    Both Chiun and Remo are able to outrun a large explosion that destroyed a hillside on a mountain Quicksilver style, and the explosion is frozen in time compared to them. Remo again is shown to be much faster than Chiun. While Chiun could escape? Remo had already been long gone by the time he did that. This to the point that Chiun had thought that Remo had been caught in the explosion.

    Taken from Air Raid.

    https://i.imgur.com/Dk2hse9.png

    https://i.imgur.com/vdqAKrn.png

    In Prophet of Doom we see Remo Williams move so fast that he can create whirlwinds of compressed air that can intercept and deflect bullets.

    https://i.imgur.com/9nEKymH.png

    In 100 Proof we see Chiun treat reacting to bullets as a trivial thing. He is able to effortlessly flick seven bullets out of the air at the same time, and use said seven bullets to flick another seven bullets out of the air that were heading towards Stone (Remo's son). As I said before your average Master of Sinanju is basically Quicksilver. And even bullets are basically stuck in a time-stop when compared to them.

    https://i.imgur.com/Ps62eAC.png

    Speaking of Stone though. Despite being an amateur he already knows how to banish people's souls into the Void by punching them really fast and hard. Before malevolent spirits proceed to drag them down into hell. That's right even people who only know the basics of Sinanju can pummel people so hard their soul gets ejected into another dimension. Somehow I can feel Akuma nodding his head in approval somewhere.

    Taken from Overload.

    https://i.imgur.com/md1sHyw.png

    https://i.imgur.com/43lUl0M.png

    In regards to electricity and lightning bolts?

    In High Priestess we see Remo Williams punch somebody out of the way of a lightning bolt. Specifically within a millionth of a second. As microsecond is not used, and it specifies a millionth of a second it will be hard to argue it is narrative hyperbole or the writer not knowing what a microsecond is.

    https://i.imgur.com/aKl7xfK.png

    This is also taken from Air Raid. Remo Williams is able to intercept a lightning bolt. He manages to reach the lightning bolt after it pierced through the ceiling of the room he was in but before it could reach the floor.

    https://i.imgur.com/7OMPcs2.png

    Taken from The Final Crusade.

    Chiun is able to move faster than electricity in a wire. After a detonator was used by accident. Chiun explains in detail how he was actually moving faster than the electrical signal. In everyday electrical and electronic devices? Their signals on average travel 50% to 99% the speed of light as electromagnetic waves.

    https://i.imgur.com/o2FKAEP.png

    https://i.imgur.com/C1JmCsQ.png

    Now moving to radiation, and light.

    Taken from Ground Zero.

    Remo Williams can run circles around neutrons from a neutron bomb after it went off, and maintains a safe distance from the expanding radiation field. For reference neutrons move in the realm of 20,000 kilometers per second at bare minimum for a rating of MeV 2. From a neutron bomb they would actually be a lot faster than that. Since they are close to 14 MeV. Which means they're more along the lines of moving at 50,000 kilometers per second. Remo can comfortably keep out of their reach when they're shooting towards him.

    https://i.imgur.com/hCGVpuH.png

    In Time-Trial he fights a bunch of natives who discovered a bunch of laser rifles. Which were heavily implied to have come from an alien civilization. These are technologically based weapons. So, you can't argue that it is magical light either.

    After getting surrounded by them he easily dodges all the lasers they fire at him. After the lasers are already in midair.

    https://i.imgur.com/gR9AKQd.png

    They match the sort of laser weaponry currently being designed by the military.

    https://i.imgur.com/n49uqJR.png

    The lasers are specifically described to fire light at people, and are completely silent. Also, one stray shot destroys a cloud in the sky.

    https://i.imgur.com/HuaRi7K.png

    Remo William's best speed feat comes from fighting people who use the Krahseevah's vibration suit technology. Early on in the series Remo had difficulty dealing with it but as of recent he can match and cancel out the vibrations. What's impressive about it is that just like The Flash? The Krahseevah could vibrate through matter. It did this by oscillating trillions of times per millisecond (citation: Blue Smoke and Mirrors). This isn't narrative hyperbole as it is being described to us by someone going over the specifications of it, and not the narrator. Besides that, no amount of conventional speed allows you to phase through solid objects. So, I think it's fair to assume this is FTL. Even if you assume it only moves an inch per vibration for example? You're still looking at 84,725 c. Almost 85,000 times the speed of light.

    The feat in question happens in Continental Divide. Here it is:

    https://i.imgur.com/lC0ePGR.png

    https://i.imgur.com/iWY7V7b.png

    While earlier in the series he couldn't counter the phasing like he could in Continental Divide. He could still react quickly enough to decapitate people who used the vibration suit to travel through telephone lines. Which again should be somewhere in the realm of 50% to 99% the speed of light.

    Taken from Engines of Destruction.

    https://i.imgur.com/Jb7UYMP.png

    https://i.imgur.com/o9827uY.png

    I think I discussed enough about how fast they are. Now let's look into how strong they are.

    Early on both Chiun and Remo are able to lift the monuments on Mount Rushmore, and keep them from falling down. You are looking at something within the realm of over 4000 metric tons.

    Taken from The Destroyer #7.

    https://i.imgur.com/Sb6gFcS.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/qFd8nUY.jpg

    As early on as the fifth book Dr. Quake? We see a scientist develop a water-jet powerful enough to stop an earth-quake. Conversely, it can also be used to cause earthquakes. Remo is able to wrestle against the pressure of this water-jet, and redirects it in order to kill Dr. Quake's daughters. Who were planning on causing another earth-quake. It was powerful enough to destroy the San Andreas fault line, and sink the entirety of California into the ocean (if only).

    https://i.imgur.com/CFwBQuy.png

    https://i.imgur.com/L6i5eru.png

    https://i.imgur.com/1iKt4Zz.png

    https://i.imgur.com/SAdWepG.png

    Later on in the same book we see Chiun deal with an even bigger water-jet. Which again was going to destroy the fault line, and had absorbed all of the vibrations in California. He effortlessly destroys it, and the resulting shock-wave is felt across California as he "returns all of its vibrations."

    https://i.imgur.com/iYy3vRH.png

    https://i.imgur.com/As8AQbY.png

    https://i.imgur.com/1IxaTop.png

    I exceeded ten thousand characters. I will be extending this to the next post.
    Last edited by Jaden Korr; 09-26-2021 at 08:15 AM.

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    Next feats require some context. Remo Williams is able to overpower the psychokinesis of The Dutchmen on two occasions. Also known as Jeremiah Purcell. In the first instance The Dutchman was powerful enough to destroy mountains with his psychokinesis. In the second instance The Dutchman was so powerful he was going to destroy the planet Venus, and nearly succeeded before Remo Williams stopped him. Chiun also notes that he would have gone on to destroy every planet and star before destroying Earth.

    Taken from the Master's Challenge.

    The Dutchman destroying a mountain. It's blown to smithereens, and pieces of it fly into the air.

    https://i.imgur.com/FGfNRVb.png

    We learn that Remo and Jeremiah are closely tied together, and so are their souls. After Remo thought Jeremiah had killed Chiun he takes him on himself. Remo is able to see past his illusions, resist his psychokinesis, and defeat the Dutchman.

    https://i.imgur.com/DfDGjIq.png

    https://i.imgur.com/UCeI1pc.png

    https://i.imgur.com/gO7D8CT.png

    Taken from The Line of Succession.

    The Dutchman goes completely nuts, and tries to destroy the planet Venus. Before he can destroy the planet Remo Williams defeats him.

    https://i.imgur.com/KTDabLh.png

    https://i.imgur.com/Tk7XQEL.png

    https://i.imgur.com/jnNdGKC.png

    This isn't the only time Remo William dealt with things you would expect out of heralds of Galactus. Remo Williams himself is the reincarnation of Shiva. The literal Hindu God. He can channel Shiva via a mantra, or even transform into Shiva. As Shiva he's powerful enough to begin the Tandava, and destroy and recreate the universe. Shiva also has dominion over the Void, and the afterlife in general. He usually resides somewhere in the center of the universe beyond the hearing of every other being in the universe, but Chiun was able to find and communicate with him via telepathy.

    Remo Williams channeling Shiva early on in his career.

    Taken from The Destroyer #1.

    https://i.imgur.com/rzPENtF.jpg

    Also, the act of killing Remo Williams causes Shiva to automatically possess his body and resurrect him. He fights Kali in Bloodlust and Arabian Nightmare. So, even if somehow Kenshiro managed to get extremely lucky and kill Remo? He would then have to deal with Shiva.

    https://i.imgur.com/jRO9Prw.png

    https://i.imgur.com/1mnPFe4.png

    In More Blood it took the combined power of every Master of Sinanju in the five-thousand history of House Sinanju just to stalemate Shiva. That's over a hundred different masters including Chiun. They still couldn't beat him of course. However, Shiva was impressed enough that he decided to spare the Earth and not destroy it. This time.

    https://i.imgur.com/kjb1YnV.png

    https://i.imgur.com/BvIu6Pf.png

    https://i.imgur.com/PaVtTIw.png

    https://i.imgur.com/DWLVYnj.png

    https://i.imgur.com/DBFLD8t.png

    Now on to discussing techniques. Sinanju has a wide variety of instant kill techniques that ignore conventional durability.

    There are death grips. Which hyper-accelerate the rigormortis process.

    Taken from The Final Crusade.

    https://i.imgur.com/r9AVWD0.png

    Techniques that involve cellular manipulation. Remo Williams himself has employed something that can destroy all of the mitochondria in a person's cells with a touch.

    Taken from Coin of the Realm.

    https://i.imgur.com/EiiMtZR.png

    He can stop a person's heart from beating or induce heart attacks. Again with a touch.

    https://i.imgur.com/npC5VNa.png

    A master of sinanju can sense every kind of energy in the universe, and they become one with it via ki-ai or the spirit breath. They basically can't run out of stamina since they can draw on more energy from the universe with their breathing techniques. And even then Chiun himself could go without oxygen for an excess of seven hours when he was only ten years old.

    https://i.imgur.com/aouMft5.png

    https://i.imgur.com/5nDXKVm.png

    https://i.imgur.com/d7uHY80.png

    Taken from Sweet Dreams.

    They also have complete control over their bodies.

    Remo can constrict and dilate his pupils at will. He can raise or lower his body temperature. He also has control over his heart, and can raise or lower his heart-rate without moving. Anywhere between 4 to 108 beats per minute.

    https://i.imgur.com/mPqUlqF.png

    There are pressure points that allow Remo to erase someone's memories.

    https://i.imgur.com/whoIfOL.png

    Taken from Dead Reckoning. Another example of the Emptying Basin technique in action.

    https://i.imgur.com/xo2LiKL.png

    Taken from The Last Dragon.

    Chiun knocks out an Apatosaurus by realigning its spine.

    https://i.imgur.com/XeMCtWx.png

    https://i.imgur.com/eP4Gg0v.png

    Also from The Last Dragon.

    Chiun and Remo can regulate their body temperate without needing to sweat, and can cool their bodies in extreme heat just by focusing. They don't sweat unless they choose to.

    https://i.imgur.com/WN2t5mR.png

    Taken from Spoils of War.

    Chiun and Remo can communicate with each other telepathically. Anyway, Chiun guides him and Remo is able to expel a deadly poison from his body.

    https://i.imgur.com/iO0DPTH.png

    https://i.imgur.com/SStePVN.png

    Taken from In Enemy Hands.

    Also, besides telepathy practitioners of sinanju have some measure of telekinesis.

    https://i.imgur.com/V4BECNJ.png

    https://i.imgur.com/xG8ebT1.png

    Taken from Feast or Famine.

    There is also a technique known as Illuminating the Shadow that allows a master of sinanju to track down a target, and learn more about it through prophetic visions.

    https://i.imgur.com/1fMfBEW.png

    Taken from Child's Play.

    Remo Williams knows Fallen Petal. Which allows him to reprogram someone, and change their personality.

    https://i.imgur.com/tNkC0gb.png

    In Timber Line we see Remo walk on water.

    https://i.imgur.com/giLISEM.png

    In Child's Play we see him walk up walls.

    https://i.imgur.com/Q8uNE5E.png

    Taken from The End of the World.

    Remo Williams can also fly with the technique known as Flying Hawk.

    https://i.imgur.com/pHe0chh.png

    The same book has Remo grant Chiun the ability to transmute abstract concepts like death or gods representing the idea of death into marble statues. Mind you, Remo had to use his mantra for this one. Which covers Musou Tensei pretty handily. Chiun uses it to kill Cizin. The Mayan god of death.

    https://i.imgur.com/KqkGPLG.png

    https://i.imgur.com/fsla0ya.png

    Taken from The Seventh Stone.

    Also, more on the oneness with the universe sinanju masters have. They can manipulate atoms or molecules. In such a way that they can phase through matter, and make it magically disappear. Basically, think Kitty Pryde. Here Remo uses it to phase through matter.

    https://i.imgur.com/LKY6D3f.png

    Taken from Look Into My Eyes.

    Remo can also use it to transmute matter into vapor.

    https://i.imgur.com/SzrNN62.png

    Taken from Market Force.

    Remo can also make use of this to change the appearance of others. He made somebody look like a Picasso painting. Moving one of his eyes to his forehead. His nose down to his chin, and moved both of his ears. As well as his other eye over onto where his mouth was.

    https://i.imgur.com/zJCCULM.png

    Also from the same book he turned somebody inside out, and pulled out all of his insides.

    https://i.imgur.com/YK0svfx.png

    Taken from Monumental Terror.

    Chiun stops two of Remo's lovers from killing each other in jealousy by making them intangible like ghosts.

    https://i.imgur.com/2EoMXH8.jpg
    Last edited by Jaden Korr; 09-26-2021 at 05:56 PM.

  8. #8
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    Also, trying to make Remo explode from the inside out will not work. As The Dutchman could do the same thing with his psychokinesis, and it was useless against Remo.

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    JUST DO IT?!?! Postmania's Avatar
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    An impressive feat of necromancy.
    “The master has failed more times than the beginner has even tried.”
    -Stephen McCranie

  10. #10
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postmania View Post
    An impressive feat of necromancy.
    Indeed.

    I don't know Remo that well and, honestly, this is a whole wall of stuff to actually vet. Given that this first volume Ken only, I see no reason to debate this overmuch.

    I would flag that some of these decriptions, upon actually reading the supplied quotes seem a fair bit generous to me.
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    I fixed the links that were repeats of others if that's what you were referring to. The rest was just me repeating what was seen within the excerpts, and then explaining their significance using real world equivalents.

  12. #12
    Mighty Member Shai-Hulud's Avatar
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    Wow. Remo and Chiun have grown much more powerful since I started reading the series in, maybe, 1980. And stopped about 1990.

    Back then I was impressed when Chiun hurled a spear faster than the speed of sound, and Remo crossed a room to pull someone's finger off before they could fire the trigger.

    Seems like kid stuff by comparison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shai-Hulud View Post
    Wow. Remo and Chiun have grown much more powerful since I started reading the series in, maybe, 1980. And stopped about 1990.

    Back then I was impressed when Chiun hurled a spear faster than the speed of sound, and Remo crossed a room to pull someone's finger off before they could fire the trigger.

    Seems like kid stuff by comparison.
    There's also a continuation for both the original Destroyer series called The New Destroyer, and a spinoff starring Stone and Freya. Called Legacy. About Remo's kids. Sunny Joe is taking care of them in Arizona. Only eight books in, and we already have Sunny doing stuff like swatting tank rounds out of the air and making someone's heart explode. If you're not familiar with him Sunny is Remo's biological father. He's not an official master but he's still pretty strong.

    https://i.imgur.com/R00VgpX.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/ISTgemP.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/AOJpvqj.jpg

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    Spectacular Member Muadib's Avatar
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    Holy cow, the power levels in the Sinanju verse have gone off the charts! And what's this about Remo having kids and his biological father is alive?

  15. #15
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Yeah, I just read through those new feats, and yeesh, Remo seems to have gone from being "stupidly beyond street-level, but no threat for the Avengers" to "ha, Avengers, don't make me laugh, next time bring your A game." (I exaggerate only slightly - he'd still maybe have issues with Thor and high end class 100s, but everyone else is, as Ken would say, already dead)

    Given the speed and esoterics shown in the new stuff, even EoS Ken has no chance whatsoever. Remo is much too fast, definitely capable of doing damage, and even has direct counters for literally all of Ken's stuff. Intangible? Ha, feats for overriding that in more than one way. Pressure point nonsense? Nope, Remo literally changes memories, mind controls, causes all the organ explosion stuff, heals people, whatever. Chuin and Remo even bring a person into Flash-time with them to the point that she, when in their arms when they are doing the Quicksilver stuff, can clearly and slowly perceive things that are otherwise happening instantaneously. Honestly, it looks like the author kind of based a lot of the new stuff on FoNS, with a generous dollop of other magic sauce on top.

    And of course, even if Ken could do something to Remo, all that does is bring out Shiva, and Ken don't want none of that nonsense.
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