Remo Williams Vs. Kenshiro (1st Volume)

[Sharpandpointies]

I am talking about the wounds. In fiction illusions can in fact cause a person physical harm due to them being so convinced they were hurt that their body changes to reflect that. Mind over matter. Conversely, being hypnotized into getting super powers or on the extreme end of scale somebody in Morrowind being lectured on how they don't actually exist. Then proceeding to disappear into a puff of smoke since the argument made was a good one.

Yes, and I agree with that. You can see that in the edit to my post. Clearly the Dutchman's illusions also cause actual physical damage if they are believed (the hail that hurts Jilda being another example of that). That's fine.

The kind of earthquake you would need would require a ludicrous amount of kinetic energy. You would need something much higher than a magnitude of ten point five, and even that requires 84802435285.3 tons of TNT.

https://www.easycalculation.com/othe...-explosion.php

Sure, and that's the point I'm getting at.

I'm going to try to be clear, here.

My question about the Dr. Quake water laser thing is whether or not the laser is simply brute-forcing everything or if there is some weird pseudo-scientific explanation as to why it can manage to make California go boom. In your quotes, Dr. Quake himself explains that it has to do with a pressure differential across the fault. The water lasers are used to change that pressure differential. This is illustrated when Remo uses the water laser to kill the twins: he uses the laser to CLOSE the crevasse they're in.

If it were simply blasting into a fault and splitting it open, how would he use it to CLOSE the crevasse?

To ME, it seems like some pseudo-scientific thing of 'the laser is powerful enough to affect the pressure differential, earthquake happens, that does the rest.'

Now, I'm not saying this is not inconsiderable. If the water lasers are affecting the pressure differential across the fault, that's...enormous. So sure, I accept that Remo or Chiun withstanding their force is an example of some extreme level of durability or capacity to deal with force.

I posted that earlier in the thread.

Taken from Dr. Quake.

https://i.imgur.com/CFwBQuy.png

https://i.imgur.com/L6i5eru.png

https://i.imgur.com/1iKt4Zz.png

https://i.imgur.com/SAdWepG.png

Thank you, that was helpful.

They went neck to neck, and Jeremiah Purcell was not holding back. Are you seriously arguing that by feats even a Shiva empowered Remo Williams is weaker than The Dutchman, and the only reason he won all his fights is because of PIS? Since that's what this is beginning to feel like.

I will clarify - I stated that in Line of Succession, yes, Purcell's power to at least cause a flare of energy capable of being seen from Venus to Earth is established pretty clearly, and if Remo in that book has feats for withstanding Purcell's PK then cool.

But dude, if Purcell never actually USES his PK on Remo in that book, there's no feat, and that's what I'm saying.

If those wounds are not illusions like you claim they are, and Remo ultimately defeats Jeremiah? Why exactly would Remo Williams not scale to that? At that point he was no longer being protected either, and in The Line of Succession there's nobody there to protect him either. It's also established that to be a vessel of Shiva or Kali you must be tough enough to actually house their power. We see this with vessels of Kali who break down because they're not appropriate ones.

So, I can't speak to Line of Succession. I can't because I haven't read it, which is why I'm asking for information on it.

However, to answer the above with regards to Master's Challenge, the reason I wouldn't scale Remo to the mountain busting is because Purcell is clearly not trying to KILL Remo when he inflicts wounds on his arms. He's torturing him. If he wanted to kill him, and could inflict gaping, bleeding wounds on Remo's arms, why didn't he just do the same to Remo's throat?

It's like when he busts Jilda's spear. She throws a spear at him, he shatters it into shards. Is he using a giant, mountain-shattering cloud of energy (that basically wiped him out to do) to break the spear? No, he's breaking a spear.

Similarly here - he's very specific that he's thinking about having Remo's arms get cut up. He's not thinking 'Die now Remo'. He's torturing him. When Remo breaks the illusion (yes, I accept that part is his illusion spinning), it's written that he then gets in his three, perfect shots before Purcell can attack. And that's the biz.

That's as clear as I can make it.

It was meant to hit the San Andreas fault line, and cause a mega earth-quake that would have sunk California. However, as I already established the energy required for mega earth-quakes to happen is ridiculous and in the realm of gigatons of TNT.

I get that. The idea I'm working on here is that Quake talks about the earthquakes happening because of a pressure differential, and then the earth basically resets itself with the quake. My question is whether or not the water laser is actually outputting that enormous amount of energy, or if Murphy has this idea it can just alter the pressure differential between the two sides of the fault and THAT causes the quake.

Which would still, really, take an enormous amount of pressure to alter that pressure differential.

It most certainly does. When the plot doesn't understand the significance of feats that's also PIS. For example. It being a big deal for Son Goku early on to train at ten times Earth's gravity back with King Kai. Which is ridiculous. At that point ten times Earth's gravity would have been nothing. Even a hundred or three-hundred times gravity is catastrophically low for what he's actually capable of at that point. The plot was being a silly goose, and the writer didn't realize it.

I gotta give you points here for using 'silly goose', because that's something I like to say offline. ^_^

My point is that Remo isn't someone who never feels fear, so having him feel fear here isn't exactly PIS. For me, the PIS is 'why didn't the Dutchman just cut his throat instead of carving up his arms?' If that makes sense.

Citation needed that this was for anyone other than Remo Williams. As it worked perfectly fine on hundreds of different people in The Line of Succession.



Why it did effect literally everyone else if something as simple as being fearless would make you immune? Is everyone there just a giant coward?

Okay, two things.

1. You make a valid point. I don't actually have anything to show that the whole 'his power only works on you if you fear him' isn't limited to Remo. So, fair enough.
2. Feeling fear and being 'a giant coward' are two rather different things. This statement feels a little like a straw man, here.

But you're correct, I don't have anything specific to show that the business of 'fear = his power working on you' is limited to solely to Remo. Earlier in the story there's discussion of 'if you believe it it works on you', but that's a different thing. So fair enough.

The end of the book has him disintegrate Nuihc's castle. Taking the type of destruction into account, and what his castle was made out of (and the size of it) you're at least getting something in the realm of kilotons of tnt. So yeah, it would be within the yield of a nuke. Disintegration requires a lot of energy, and this not just some person he's disintegrating.

Okay, if he's annihilating Nuihc's castle, then sure, he has a ton of power back in the first book. Fair enough.

So, you also don't understand how much of a yield earth-quakes like this require? I already provided a link above. Even tiny earth-quakes need kilotons of TNT equivalence to actually happen. This one was supposed to sink California to the bottom of the ocean, and would require some sort of mega earthquake.

See my comments above. Yes, I know that earthquakes put out a ****-ton of energy, due to the fact that they're entire tectonic plates shifting very rapidly (albeit over a very short distance, which is a good thing for life on this planet).

He's able to beat The Dutchman, and by your own admission it wasn't an illusion. When he got hurt by those psychic "knives" there. You do know the fact he survived that and didn't disintegrate considering how powerful Jeremiah's psychokinesis is? That means he's super-humanly durable enough that he can endure it but not completely ignore it.

Purcell specifically is cutting up his arms. He states that. He's not trying to disintegrate Remo, he's specifically talking about 'feel the knives in your arms', and Remo does.

Whether or not it's an illusion - you made a good point on that, earlier, and I have accepted that the 'knives' part is Purcell doing the 'illusions you believe in will actually harm you' thing, okay - the fact is that Purcell is not trying to kill Remo there, he's specifically cutting up his arms with knives or as if he's using knives and even says as much.

Why? He's insane, he likes people to suffer, that's pretty much demonstrated through the entire book.

[Sharpandpointies]

Except for some reason you believe Jeremiah was holding back against Remo? You do know he can apply his psychokinesis to physically amp himself as well, right? Just like how practitioners of sinanju rely on energy manipulation. He's also a practitioner of sinanju, and he combines that his natural psychic ability. Nuihc taught him.

Again, can't speak to Line of Succession. I haven't read the book.

But the whole point of Rumbles is that we work with what we can see. If Purcell never uses the PK on Remo in Line of Succession, then there's no feat for Remo. I don't know, maybe he does. Does he? And how?

Dude, I'm perfectly open to being proven wrong, here. Heck, I'm not even arguing that Line of Succession has no feat for Remo resisting that level of PK. I don't know - I haven't read it. Is there some passage where Purcell tries something on Remo and it doesn't work? If so, great! Issue solved.

Specifically by blasting the San Andreas fault line with it, and causing such a massive earthquake that it gets destroyed. Which would have caused California to go the way of Atlantis.

Exactly. It's the earthquake that's doing it. An earthquake caused, in Dr. Quake's own words in one of the quotes you have provided, by the pressure difference between the two sides of the fault. Which the laser apparently creates.

I mean, we see the cannon being used to CLOSE a fissure in one of those quotes you have (again, the one where he kills the twins). It's clearly not just blasting stuff and busting it up.

Taken from Prophet of Doom.

Basically, the Pythia prevents Remo from returning to his body. He holds his own against it. Apollo steps in but then that's when Shiva appears, and gives him a taste of his lingham. Also, during the fight Remo generates energies equivalent to a supernova against the Pythia. It notes that this wasn't visible externally but that's because the fight was actually happening in another dimension. As Remo's soul struggled to get back to his body.

https://i.imgur.com/isjXmbq.png

https://i.imgur.com/aZOxYHN.png

https://i.imgur.com/jhFvwhm.png

https://i.imgur.com/t8lRrhi.png

Cool, will look at this tonight. Can't right now, work doesn't allow me to check imgur.

I have no doubt that Remo in the later part of the series is absolutely ridiculous. My entire discussion thus far has been focusing on Master's Challenge (and now, apparently, the water laser from Dr. Quake). Some interesting stuff in there, more than I thought.

[Jaden Korr]

Can't get to all that either right now. I am at work again. I will reply again tonight when I have access to my laptop.

[Jaden Korr]

Yes, and I agree with that. You can see that in the edit to my post. Clearly the Dutchman's illusions also cause actual physical damage if they are believed (the hail that hurts Jilda being another example of that). That's fine.

Alright. That's settled then.

Sure, and that's the point I'm getting at.

I'm going to try to be clear, here.

My question about the Dr. Quake water laser thing is whether or not the laser is simply brute-forcing everything or if there is some weird pseudo-scientific explanation as to why it can manage to make California go boom. In your quotes, Dr. Quake himself explains that it has to do with a pressure differential across the fault. The water lasers are used to change that pressure differential. This is illustrated when Remo uses the water laser to kill the twins: he uses the laser to CLOSE the crevasse they're in.

If it were simply blasting into a fault and splitting it open, how would he use it to CLOSE the crevasse?

Simple, it's doing the exact opposite there. It's forcing the fault line to close. Which is impressive in of itself as the fault line is actually 1,200 kilometers in length. That's like a gazillion metric tons of rock the water-jet is slamming shut. It's explained earlier that it's dependent on where you fire the water-jet. Positioning is important. That crevice was actually part of the fault line, and the whole thing closed on the twins. They actually survive though. They return in The New Destroyer series. In Bully Pulpit. They also help develop a series of powerful bombs that are capable of blowing up the whole planet. Remo Williams survives being at ground zero of one of the explosions but thankfully he is able to prevent the others from happening, and saves the world. It was a plot by some crazy preacher who wanted to save everyone's souls by making Earth go the way of Alderaan.

Taken from Bully Pulpit.



Imagine becoming JRPG villains just because Remo Williams said no to evil. Anyway, he's where he is hit by the shock-wave of one of the bombs. Which also buries him under a literal tsunami of snow.

https://i.imgur.com/67x5Jw8.png

https://i.imgur.com/RtqdWja.png

https://i.imgur.com/NDVN5ps.png

https://i.imgur.com/WgYIzoM.png

https://i.imgur.com/ZRhGt9h.png

https://i.imgur.com/4iwGkNR.png

Another of the one bombs going off shakes the entirety of the nearby Channel Islands. The Channel Islands are 78 square kilometers of land.

https://i.imgur.com/a4xDhQj.png

https://i.imgur.com/upk9HPs.png

To ME, it seems like some pseudo-scientific thing of 'the laser is powerful enough to affect the pressure differential, earthquake happens, that does the rest.'

The water-jets use ambient vibrations are a power source, and then simply hit the San Andreas fault line to either stop or cause earth-quakes. Depending once again on what direction they're blasting at. By either closing or opening the fault line. It seems a simple cause of kinetic energy being applied to a specific area.

Now, I'm not saying this is not inconsiderable. If the water lasers are affecting the pressure differential across the fault, that's...enormous. So sure, I accept that Remo or Chiun withstanding their force is an example of some extreme level of durability or capacity to deal with force.

Even a fraction of it would be well beyond the yield of the Tsar Bomb. No matter how much you interpret it. Due to the sheer severity of the earth-quake it was going to cause. Any fraction of a mega quake even something like 1/100th of the kinetic energy is still well into megatons of TNT. Trying to low-ball it even lower than 1/100th would be ridiculous, and unrealistic.

Thank you, that was helpful.

You're welcome but as I noted it's not Remo Williams best feat involving the twins and their mad schemes.

I will clarify - I stated that in Line of Succession, yes, Purcell's power to at least cause a flare of energy capable of being seen from Venus to Earth is established pretty clearly, and if Remo in that book has feats for withstanding Purcell's PK then cool.

But dude, if Purcell never actually USES his PK on Remo in that book, there's no feat, and that's what I'm saying.

I already posted the end of the fight but now I am going to post what happened before The Dutchman tried blowing up Venus. Remo had another articulation with Jeremiah when he was interrogating him on the location of his daughter Freya. It's established that not only is Jeremiah's sinanju useless against Remo but so is the beast. The beast is the part of him which represents his psychic abilities. So, both his abilities as a practitioner of sinanju, and his psychic powers granted to him by the beast were useless against an enraged Remo.

Taken from The Line of Succession.

https://i.imgur.com/mNUfxLG.png

https://i.imgur.com/vvWS5dz.png

As for proof that The Beast represents his psychic powers? It's noted as such earlier in the same book. When it blows up a doe out of jealousy. And as the earlier instance makes clear even it is powerless against Remo. In the same book where it's powerful enough to light up Venus like a candle.

https://i.imgur.com/pD38DsL.png

Similarly here - he's very specific that he's thinking about having Remo's arms get cut up. He's not thinking 'Die now Remo'. He's torturing him. When Remo breaks the illusion (yes, I accept that part is his illusion spinning), it's written that he then gets in his three, perfect shots before Purcell can attack. And that's the biz.

That's as clear as I can make it.

The thing is Jeremiah Purcell doesn't have any self-control, and anything employed by The Beast does so with murderous intent. The sheer psychic energy even in Next of Kin
was enough to disintegrate a castle. In Master's Challenge it could destroy mountains. And there's no reason to assume The Beast would hold back. As it is not Jeremiah Purcell but instead another aspect of his being. Not unlike Shiva is to Remo. This is explained in The Line of Succession.

I get that. The idea I'm working on here is that Quake talks about the earthquakes happening because of a pressure differential, and then the earth basically resets itself with the quake. My question is whether or not the water laser is actually outputting that enormous amount of energy, or if Murphy has this idea it can just alter the pressure differential between the two sides of the fault and THAT causes the quake.

Which would still, really, take an enormous amount of pressure to alter that pressure differential.

That's my point. Even if it's just a fraction of it that would still lead to enormous results. Things in the realm of megatons of TNT even at bare minimum, and even then that's still underselling it. As a ten point five earth-quake wouldn't be able to sink California. I mean it would do a lot of damage but it wouldn't separate California from the rest of the country, and slam it to the bottom of the ocean. Even if it is a fraction of something like ten point five it's still in the realm of megatons of TNT.

That's why I didn't feel like you understood the scale of it here. Not that it matters much compared to bombs that can literally blow up the planet. When triggered in succession.

My point is that Remo isn't someone who never feels fear, so having him feel fear here isn't exactly PIS. For me, the PIS is 'why didn't the Dutchman just cut his throat instead of carving up his arms?' If that makes sense.

The Dutchman is kind of insane, and not exactly all right in the head. I mean The Beast is arguably a split personality he has, and it is the source of his psychic powers. It could simply have been so angry that it wasn't thinking in practical or pragmatic terms. It just went with what came to mind first.

But you're correct, I don't have anything specific to show that the business of 'fear = his power working on you' is limited to solely to Remo. Earlier in the story there's discussion of 'if you believe it it works on you', but that's a different thing. So fair enough.

I just think it's weird as Jeremiah's illusions have always worked on almost everyone except a select few who have demonstrated their own supernatural capabilities. It makes more sense that Remo's fear could weaken him. I mean with sinanju even not maintaining a strict diet and smoking cigarettes can disrupt your ability as a martial artist. As their physiology changes when they train. Eating certain foods can kill them. The only time when they can eschew their practices regarding that is if they reach the state of mastery. As in The New Destroyer series we see Remo doesn't have to worry about that anymore. Their bodies are reshaped in order for them to better use the techniques of House Sinanju.

I mean I even remember that their state of mind plays an important part in several books. If they don't maintain focus it can unravel their techniques.

Okay, if he's annihilating Nuihc's castle, then sure, he has a ton of power back in the first book. Fair enough.

There's also what I mentioned with The Beast, and how even it was cowed under Remo's fury in The Line of Succession. As The Beast relies purely on its psychic powers, and it couldn't do anything to save Jeremiah from Remo's wrath.

Hit the character limit. See the next post.

[Jaden Korr]

See my comments above. Yes, I know that earthquakes put out a ****-ton of energy, due to the fact that they're entire tectonic plates shifting very rapidly (albeit over a very short distance, which is a good thing for life on this planet).

It's not just a short distance here. The water-jet can open and close the San Andreas fault line. As I already noted above, and that's 1,200 kilometers worth of earth. The yield you're going to get is crazy no matter how you cut it, and going to easily be in thermonuclear warhead range.

Why? He's insane, he likes people to suffer, that's pretty much demonstrated through the entire book.

He's not just insane. He developed another personality, and that personality manages his psychic powers. You could argue that it was due The Beast wanting to avoid killing Jeremiah. As killing Remo would also kill Jeremiah. However, even it is cowed and helpless before an enraged Remo in The Line of Succession. Who definitely would have killed Jeremiah despite the cost to himself. As the man had threatened his daughter's life.

Again, can't speak to Line of Succession. I haven't read the book.

But the whole point of Rumbles is that we work with what we can see. If Purcell never uses the PK on Remo in Line of Succession, then there's no feat for Remo. I don't know, maybe he does. Does he? And how?

There's an earlier fight in the book where it's shown that not only is Jeremiah helpless? So is The Beast, and The Beast is what manages his psychic powers. If it could still use its psychic powers to save Jeremiah from Remo's wrath why didn't it? Remo was about to murder Jeremiah because the man put his daughter's life at risk, and Remo was angry enough to do it despite the cost to himself.

Dude, I'm perfectly open to being proven wrong, here. Heck, I'm not even arguing that Line of Succession has no feat for Remo resisting that level of PK. I don't know - I haven't read it. Is there some passage where Purcell tries something on Remo and it doesn't work? If so, great! Issue solved.

I just posted the excerpt where it's made clear that not only is Jeremiah helpless against Remo but so is The Beast. When their life is in danger, and Jeremiah has become desperate due to fear. The Beast was pissing its pants when confronted with an enraged father. Who also happened to be the living avatar of a Hindu god of destruction.

Exactly. It's the earthquake that's doing it. An earthquake caused, in Dr. Quake's own words in one of the quotes you have provided, by the pressure difference between the two sides of the fault. Which the laser apparently creates.

I mean, we see the cannon being used to CLOSE a fissure in one of those quotes you have (again, the one where he kills the twins). It's clearly not just blasting stuff and busting it up.

It didn't just close a fissure. It closed the fault line. As noted in Bully Pulpit. By the very same twins who got trapped in there. After Remo blasted them with the water-jet. They then went on to create bombs powerful enough to blow up the planet if triggered in succession across the globe. One of which Remo survives the shock-wave from. It seems clear cut Remo is that powerful right now. I already put it the best as I could. This should be enough to convince you.

Cool, will look at this tonight. Can't right now, work doesn't allow me to check imgur.

I have no doubt that Remo in the later part of the series is absolutely ridiculous. My entire discussion thus far has been focusing on Master's Challenge (and now, apparently, the water laser from Dr. Quake). Some interesting stuff in there, more than I thought.

I already brought up some more things you should check out. Basically, it's all clear throughout. Even the Beast circa The Line of Succession can't do squat to Remo when he's bloodlusted, and as I established that's where Jeremiah's psychic powers are coming from.

[Jaden Korr]

That and since Shiva can just resurrect him? I highly doubt Remo wouldn't have just killed The Dutchman there.

[Jaden Korr]

Also, here's another example Shiva resurrecting someone. In Mother Mine. Another book of Legacy. Freya is drained of blood, and her head is melted down to the bone. After her spark or soul leaves her body? The Mother encounters The Other. It is infinite in size and vastness and horizon. It constitutes time, fate, history, and the fabric of existence. As well as holding sway over all life that was and is. Connecting all life via a red thread.

The Other is Shiva.







I think it's fair to say that when it's said the Tandava destroys and recreates the universe it's not joking. As among the gods Shiva seems to be the supreme deity of the universe. Including other pantheons.

[Jaden Korr]

Also, the next book has Freya encounter Shiva via astral projection. Besides flying through the cosmos? We see Shiva twirl stars and constellations around Freya, and show her visions of her past and future.

https://i.imgur.com/AM1pCeA.png

https://i.imgur.com/740d9fN.png

https://i.imgur.com/OJlCkNs.png

https://i.imgur.com/Twjb3qx.png

[Sharpandpointies]

Simple, it's doing the exact opposite there. It's forcing the fault line to close. Which is impressive in of itself as the fault line is actually 1,200 kilometers in length. That's like a gazillion metric tons of rock the water-jet is slamming shut. It's explained earlier that it's dependent on where you fire the water-jet. Positioning is important. That crevice was actually part of the fault line, and the whole thing closed on the twins. They actually survive though. They return in The New Destroyer series. In Bully Pulpit. They also help develop a series of powerful bombs that are capable of blowing up the whole planet. Remo Williams survives being at ground zero of one of the explosions but thankfully he is able to prevent the others from happening, and saves the world. It was a plot by some crazy preacher who wanted to save everyone's souls by making Earth go the way of Alderaan.

Taken from Bully Pulpit.



Imagine becoming JRPG villains just because Remo Williams said no to evil. Anyway, he's where he is hit by the shock-wave of one of the bombs. Which also buries him under a literal tsunami of snow.

https://i.imgur.com/67x5Jw8.png

https://i.imgur.com/RtqdWja.png

https://i.imgur.com/NDVN5ps.png

https://i.imgur.com/WgYIzoM.png

https://i.imgur.com/ZRhGt9h.png

https://i.imgur.com/4iwGkNR.png

Another of the one bombs going off shakes the entirety of the nearby Channel Islands. The Channel Islands are 78 square kilometers of land.

https://i.imgur.com/a4xDhQj.png

https://i.imgur.com/upk9HPs.png

Can't check these out now, but cool.

The water-jets use ambient vibrations are a power source, and then simply hit the San Andreas fault line to either stop or cause earth-quakes. Depending once again on what direction they're blasting at. By either closing or opening the fault line. It seems a simple cause of kinetic energy being applied to a specific area.

I get what you're saying.

There are some issues with it being 'kinetic energy'. Here's where that part breaks down. It's like...a couple of water lasers, or even one at the end.

If we think that the jets are literally pressing the earth apart or together with the force of the water, the problem is that the level of force needed to do that (as you note) would simply create a high pressure jet of water that cuts through the rock like a laser beam through cheese, rather than shoving a thousand miles of faultline together or apart. The beam would just carve through rock because the rock itself isn't strong enough to withstand that kind of force in that kind of area.

If we're going to treat this as science and not pseudo-science, comic book gobbledygook (which essentially is what it is), we need to consider that sort of thing as well. Any force capable of 'shoving around' billions of tons of rock is just going to core through that rock like it's air. Nothing is going to move, we're just going to end up with a water laser beaming through miles of rock. Which is cool, but not exactly what Dr. Quake is looking for.

However, Dr. Quake goes into detail on how it's a pressure differential between the two sides of the fault (the tectonic plates, really) that sets up the earthquake. The tectonic plates themselves is where all of the power comes from - a couple of chunks of the planet suddenly moving a meter or two is what creates the energy of the earthquake. The water laser is just a catalyst that allows that pent up pressure to be released.

That's where I'm coming from.

I'm fully aware of the kind of energy necessary to knock California into the ocean. NOT the exact amounts, but a nuclear bomb basically gives a mountain an exfoliation, nothing more...and dumping the whole of California into the ocean is orders of magnitude more energy than busting up a mountain. However, if we're going to apply science and so forth to this essentially magical water laser (I'm not saying it's MAGIC, just that it's not real science), there's the issue of 'how does the rock withstand this kind of force'?

Here, there is a simpler explanation. Again, Dr. Quake goes into detail about how the pressure differential across the fault creates the earthquake. The water laser alters that pressure differential by enough to create a Quake. And I know, 10.5 on the Richter scale isn't knocking California into the ocean, but discussion of that was a thing back in the 70's when I was a kid - people used to talk about 'The Big One' that would 'knock California into the ocean'. Murphy and Sapir weren't exactly seismologists, and all of that was pop culture back then.

I mean, this is all a moot point. You've given more than enough evidence in other ways to show (at the very least) that Remo is ridiculously durable even at the START of the series (which begs the question as to why he bothers to dodge bullets, but I can blame that on, again, Sapir and Murphy just going for exaggeration in some places and not really grasping the magnitude of what they're writing), there's the scene in Master's Challenge where Remo is dying-but-not-instantly under force like the shockwave of a nuclear explosion, later in the series you have the other stuff you mention in this post where he's caught inside blasts of bombs that are part of a plot to blow up the planet, etc.

You've certainly made the point that he's stupidly durable on a level I hadn't considered. I'm 100% fine conceding that.

At this point, the water laser discussion has basically become a point of interest to me where I'm trying to figure out just how, exactly, the stupid thing was supposed to work, and 'shoving around tectonic plates with pure force' doesn't seem to line up with either science (which is fine, because people are rarely considering actual science when they write these things), OR what Murphy and Sapir have written regarding Dr. Quake and his ideas.

Even a fraction of it would be well beyond the yield of the Tsar Bomb. No matter how much you interpret it. Due to the sheer severity of the earth-quake it was going to cause. Any fraction of a mega quake even something like 1/100th of the kinetic energy is still well into megatons of TNT. Trying to low-ball it even lower than 1/100th would be ridiculous, and unrealistic.

For an analogy, consider a gigantic mousetrap. All of that pressure (the tectonic plates, unfathomable amounts of rock, pressing up against each other with only friction, basically, holding it all together) builds like the spring of the trap. A tap at the correct spot, a catalyst to release that pent-up energy, and boom. What happens comes from the plates and the energy they've stored, but without the catalyst may not have happened at all or may have happened in a very different, lesser fashion.

That's where I'm coming from.

Is it still going to take a lot of force applied in a specific place? Sure. It's actually total bs as well, because again, the amount of force here would be...well, the water laser would be boring through the rock, Simple as that.

Basically the whole idea is pseudo-scientific BS no matter how we look at it, which makes the water lasers rather difficult to quantify. ^_^ Word on page says 'with enough force to dump California into the ocean'. We could go by that, even though accepting it would do that without simply swiss-cheesing the rock is...yeesh.

Again, I'm fine with the other stuff for durability. It's pretty direct - Remo is caught in energies equal to the shockwave of a nuclear blast and doesn't immediately die, later on Remo is caught in a bomb that's part of a series of bombs that's supposed to blow up the planet (I expect there's pseudo-science in this, as well, but 'big ass bomb bigger than any nuke' is probably involved, and that kind of makes a case all by itself), other stuff you've provided. Great, concede the point on Remo's durability.

I'm just...the water laser, maaaan, it's some magnificent bullshit. There's 'Sinanju does that', which is magic and fine, but then there's 'Water laser does this' and we're into 'no, that's not Sinanju magic, that's an attempt to claim science and hey, physics does not work that way' to the point where my head explodes trying to figure it out.

I already posted the end of the fight but now I am going to post what happened before The Dutchman tried blowing up Venus. Remo had another articulation with Jeremiah when he was interrogating him on the location of his daughter Freya. It's established that not only is Jeremiah's sinanju useless against Remo but so is the beast. The beast is the part of him which represents his psychic abilities. So, both his abilities as a practitioner of sinanju, and his psychic powers granted to him by the beast were useless against an enraged Remo.

Taken from The Line of Succession.

https://i.imgur.com/mNUfxLG.png

https://i.imgur.com/vvWS5dz.png

As for proof that The Beast represents his psychic powers? It's noted as such earlier in the same book. When it blows up a doe out of jealousy. And as the earlier instance makes clear even it is powerless against Remo. In the same book where it's powerful enough to light up Venus like a candle.

I have ZERO problems with the Beast representing Purcell's psychic powers. That's established waaaay back in Master's Challenge, probably before that.


Next post...

[Sharpandpointies]

The thing is Jeremiah Purcell doesn't have any self-control, and anything employed by The Beast does so with murderous intent. The sheer psychic energy even in Next of Kin
was enough to disintegrate a castle. In Master's Challenge it could destroy mountains. And there's no reason to assume The Beast would hold back. As it is not Jeremiah Purcell but instead another aspect of his being. Not unlike Shiva is to Remo. This is explained in The Line of Succession.

Here's the thing - Purcell CONSTANTLY does stuff like torture people to death. Look at how he kills the North Korean soldiers in Master's Challenge. Look at how he kills the fighter from Wales (forget hisname). None of these deaths happen with 'Mountain busting power, boom, dead'. Many of them are drawn out, specific attacks like 'burns out someone's eyes', or 'forces them to walk into a pit of venomous snakes'.

Here, it's specific in the writing. It's right there, on the page - he makes Remo feel the pain of getting his arms cut up.

Dude, a large chunk of your arguments are based on 'taking what is written on the page literally'. I get that, and that's cool. It's there, it's written on the page.

But here, you're not doing that. You're claiming something completely different than what is written on the page.

There are PLENTY of arguments already to support your point about Remo's durability and such. In this case, you are trying to make an argument with something that is NOT what is written. What is written is the Dutchman saying 'Feel the pain of knives in your arms', and Remo's arms get cut up. Period.

That's why I didn't feel like you understood the scale of it here. Not that it matters much compared to bombs that can literally blow up the planet. When triggered in succession.

I do understand the scale of it, as noted above. And you're correct, in the big picture it doesn't matter at all compared to the bombs.

The Dutchman is kind of insane, and not exactly all right in the head. I mean The Beast is arguably a split personality he has, and it is the source of his psychic powers. It could simply have been so angry that it wasn't thinking in practical or pragmatic terms. It just went with what came to mind first.

Absolutely! Which is why this isn't exactly a great feat for Remo being able to withstand Purcell's PK. He has other feats for such, great. This one is not that. The Dutchman is 100% shown to be able to carve his arms up to the point where he's bleeding all over the place and in terrible pain. Had the Dutchman been actually going for the insta-kill, why didn't he aim for the neck or something and get the same results? He clearly could have, but didn't because 'crazy', 'sadistic', likes to torture people as he kills them, etc.

I just think it's weird as Jeremiah's illusions have always worked on almost everyone except a select few who have demonstrated their own supernatural capabilities. It makes more sense that Remo's fear could weaken him. I mean with sinanju even not maintaining a strict diet and smoking cigarettes can disrupt your ability as a martial artist. As their physiology changes when they train. Eating certain foods can kill them. The only time when they can eschew their practices regarding that is if they reach the state of mastery. As in The New Destroyer series we see Remo doesn't have to worry about that anymore. Their bodies are reshaped in order for them to better use the techniques of House Sinanju.

I mean I even remember that their state of mind plays an important part in several books. If they don't maintain focus it can unravel their techniques.

Zero issues here.

There's the whole bit in Lords of the Earth with Barry whatshisname who figures out some of the basic ideas of Sinanju himself, but can't apply them in pressure situations because he doesn't have the proper training, yeah.

It's not just a short distance here. The water-jet can open and close the San Andreas fault line. As I already noted above, and that's 1,200 kilometers worth of earth. The yield you're going to get is crazy no matter how you cut it, and going to easily be in thermonuclear warhead range.

See above.

He's not just insane. He developed another personality, and that personality manages his psychic powers. You could argue that it was due The Beast wanting to avoid killing Jeremiah. As killing Remo would also kill Jeremiah. However, even it is cowed and helpless before an enraged Remo in The Line of Succession. Who definitely would have killed Jeremiah despite the cost to himself. As the man had threatened his daughter's life.

100% fair. As stated, I'm not familiar with Line of Succession, etc.

Remo, as noted, gets more and more powerful through the books. We know that. And clearly the books have gone well off the rails from what they were before if characters are attacking Venus with psychic powers. ^_^ If that's the case, I can totally buy Remo achieving that level of power himself.

And there are examples of him withstanding ridiculous stuff in earlier books as well, as you've provided.

It didn't just close a fissure. It closed the fault line. As noted in Bully Pulpit. By the very same twins who got trapped in there. After Remo blasted them with the water-jet. They then went on to create bombs powerful enough to blow up the planet if triggered in succession across the globe. One of which Remo survives the shock-wave from. It seems clear cut Remo is that powerful right now. I already put it the best as I could. This should be enough to convince you.

If Bully Pulpit (which is waaaay past where I read) states he closed an entire Fault Line on them, that's a wee bit of a retcon from what was written before (which was more 'there's a fissure, it gets closed on them', no mention of it actually moving hundreds of miles of tectonic plates). But that's part of the whole Water Laser crap, which hurts my head.

I am convinced that Remo, in the books, is wildly beyond what I thought he was before, and basically 'gets worse' as the books go on past where I finished reading. No worries.

I'm still having issues with the whole water cannon thing, as noted above, because it's gigantic bullshit even by comic book logic unless we apply the idea of 'pressure differential/catalyst' (which Dr. Quake himself brings up in the books, so), whereupon it goes from Gigantic Bullshit Even By Comic Book Logic to Okay, This Is Bullshit But Comic Book Physics, Whatddya Do?

But consider that a completely separate discussion, having nothing to do with Remo or his capabilities.

Similarly the psychic knives thing. Really, the end of Master's Challenge does not provide a great feat to prove Remo's durability, to me, because of the whole thing with the psychic knives - for me, you're better off using all of the other feats you've provided.

[Sharpandpointies]

That and since Shiva can just resurrect him? I highly doubt Remo wouldn't have just killed The Dutchman there.

That's a different matter entirely. Sure, say the Dutchman had gone for the throat and killed Remo. In-story Shiva then ressurects Remo. However, that doesn't exactly make a good point to Remo's ability to 'not get killed by the psychic knives that were opening up his arms applied instead to his throat'.

[Jaden Korr]

That's a different matter entirely. Sure, say the Dutchman had gone for the throat and killed Remo. In-story Shiva then ressurects Remo. However, that doesn't exactly make a good point to Remo's ability to 'not get killed by the psychic knives that were opening up his arms applied instead to his throat'.

I was referring more to the scene where Remo is interrogating Jeremiah on the location of his daughter, and when he was just about to kill him. When even The Beast was cowed. Just in case you thought it was because Remo wasn't actually going to go through with it or whatnot. Rather than the Beast not actually being capable of doing anything to stop Remo.

[Sharpandpointies]

I was referring more to the scene where Remo is interrogating Jeremiah on the location of his daughter, and when he was just about to kill him. When even The Beast was cowed. Just in case you thought it was because Remo wasn't actually going to go through with it or whatnot. Rather than the Beast not actually being capable of doing anything to stop Remo.

Oh, gotcha. No, no, no worries there. Thanks.

[Jaden Korr]

I think you might have missed this stuff regarding Shiva but anyway it's clear that he's pretty powerful even without scaling to anything else. Basically holds sway over everything in the universe, and can even move celestial bodies around at his leisure.

Also, here's another example Shiva resurrecting someone. In Mother Mine. Another book of Legacy. Freya is drained of blood, and her head is melted down to the bone. After her spark or soul leaves her body? The Mother encounters The Other. It is infinite in size and vastness and horizon. It constitutes time, fate, history, and the fabric of existence. As well as holding sway over all life that was and is. Connecting all life via a red thread.

The Other is Shiva.







I think it's fair to say that when it's said the Tandava destroys and recreates the universe it's not joking. As among the gods Shiva seems to be the supreme deity of the universe. Including other pantheons.

Also, the next book has Freya encounter Shiva via astral projection. Besides flying through the cosmos? We see Shiva twirl stars and constellations around Freya, and show her visions of her past and future.

https://i.imgur.com/AM1pCeA.png

https://i.imgur.com/740d9fN.png

https://i.imgur.com/OJlCkNs.png

https://i.imgur.com/Twjb3qx.png

[Sharpandpointies]

It does seem that the series has gone in some...bigger directions, let's put it that way.