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  1. #1
    Mighty Member TheSupernaut's Avatar
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    Default Is Rebirth Using The Wrong Blueprints?

    I can't help but think that Rebirth would be much better if they used Pre-flashpoint as the foundation with the best elements of the new 52 mixed in; rather than the reverse. There's so many characters that feel like echoes of their former selves. Wally West, Donna Troy, Helena Bertinelli, Cassandra Cain, Tim Drake and Stephanie Brown to name a few. The Titans history is in disarray and no one knows for sure what's canon and what's not. Rebirth is better than what came before, but I can't help but feel something is missing.

  2. #2
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    That's pretty much what they are doing, in actual practice if not in theory. But really, when Superman Reborn set the precedent that the two histories combined into one, you could see right off the bat that pre-FP stuff is far more prevalent than the New 52 stuff. So again while in theory it may be so that pre-FP stuff was moved back in on the "New 52 world", that's not how its actually playing out in practice. That may not be the case for every single character, but I'd say it has been for most so far.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  3. #3
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    That's pretty much what they are doing, in actual practice if not in theory. But really, when Superman Reborn set the precedent that the two histories combined into one, you could see right off the bat that pre-FP stuff is far more prevalent than the New 52 stuff. So again while in theory it may be so that pre-FP stuff was moved back in on the "New 52 world", that's not how its actually playing out in practice. That may not be the case for every single character, but I'd say it has been for most so far.
    That is only the case for Superman. They made a very obvious effort to try and bring back as much pre-Flashpoint continuity for Suerpman as they could and remove as much New 52 as possible. In nearly every other franchise, maybe aside from Wonder Woman, New 52 canon is far more prevalent and is what they are still building their stories off of be it in Batman, Nightwing, Batgirl, Titans, Teen Titans, Justice League, Green Arrow, Green Lantern, Flash, Suicide Squad and so on. Far more characters are still based off their New 52 versions than not from what I've seen.

  4. #4
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    I don't think memories and histories are going to be settled for everyone until after the Rebirth storyline is done.

  5. #5
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    That is only the case for Superman. They made a very obvious effort to try and bring back as much pre-Flashpoint continuity for Suerpman as they could and remove as much New 52 as possible. In nearly every other franchise, maybe aside from Wonder Woman, New 52 canon is far more prevalent and is what they are still building their stories off of be it in Batman, Nightwing, Batgirl, Titans, Teen Titans, Justice League, Green Arrow, Green Lantern, Flash, Suicide Squad and so on. Far more characters are still based off their New 52 versions than not from what I've seen.
    Yeah, I hear some people state the current universe is mostly the old DCU again, but like you, I don't see it at all. Memories of a timeline no longer in existence don't count, but what is firmly established as history, retconned or not, in the existing continuity.
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  6. #6
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    That is only the case for Superman. They made a very obvious effort to try and bring back as much pre-Flashpoint continuity for Suerpman as they could and remove as much New 52 as possible. In nearly every other franchise, maybe aside from Wonder Woman, New 52 canon is far more prevalent and is what they are still building their stories off of be it in Batman, Nightwing, Batgirl, Titans, Teen Titans, Justice League, Green Arrow, Green Lantern, Flash, Suicide Squad and so on. Far more characters are still based off their New 52 versions than not from what I've seen.
    Its only the case for Superman right now because he's the only one fully restored. But I do think its the intended precedent and blueprint for the entire DCU. Everything else just has yet to fully catch up. Superman was the first to be fully fixed. First superhero, first one restored. I think that's been the mindset from the very beginning (it of course just took them a while to figure out how and by what means they were going to establish all that, ie, what would eventually become Superman Reborn). The "missing ten years" concept has not been fixed yet for everyone else. Unless they've changed their minds totally on that explanation. If they have abandoned that then I throw up my hands and say who the hell knows. But I'm operating like its still a thing that has yet to be fixed in all cases but Superman's.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-14-2017 at 02:38 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  7. #7
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Its only the case for Superman right now because he's the only one fully restored. But I do think its the intended precedent and blueprint for the entire DCU. Everything else just has yet to fully catch up. Superman was the first to be fully fixed. First superhero, first one restored. I think that's been the mindset from the very beginning (it of course just took them a while to figure out how and by what means they were going to establish all that, ie, what would eventually become Superman Reborn). The "missing ten years" concept has not been fixed yet for everyone else. Unless they've changed their minds totally on that explanation. If they have abandoned that then I throw up my hands and say who the hell knows. But I'm operating like its still a thing that has yet to be fixed in all cases but Superman's.
    The reason they started off restoring Superman isn't because he is the "first" but because they didn't want to continue to write and build stories off of his current New 52 continuity for Rebirth. So they completely changed the character and removed as much New 52 continuity as possible so the Rebirth stories could be what they are now, but that isn't the case for most characters as the New 52 continuity has continued to get built on in Rebirth rather than get changed or restored like with Superman.

    Many rebirth stories conflict with pre-Flashpoint stories. They can't coexist. So it isn't like they are buying time until the Rebirth story is finished so they can start to build on old pre-Flashpoint continuity again. They are building on what the New 52/Rebirth is now. Like in Nightwing Dick has never been to Bludhaven in the New 52/Rebirth universe until Rebirth and they basically built it up from scratch to be different from pre-Flashpoint continuity. They aren't going to throw all that out now. This is what Bludhaven is going to be going forward. Or in Titans where they had Lazurus Contract basically take the place of Judas Contract and be how Deathstroke interacted with the Titans for the first time. There would be no point in doing a story like Lazurus Contract if they had planned on bringing back the original Judas Contract story into continuity, or there would be no point in DC telling Priest that he can't bring back JC like he wanted if Rebirth was going to restore pre-Flashpoint continuity.

  8. #8
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    The reason they started off restoring Superman isn't because he is the "first" but because they didn't want to continue to write and build stories off of his current New 52 continuity for Rebirth. So they completely changed the character and removed as much New 52 continuity as possible so the Rebirth stories could be what they are now, but that isn't the case for most characters as the New 52 continuity has continued to get built on in Rebirth rather than get changed or restored like with Superman.
    Obviously they decided to outright replace Superman because they didn't want the other version anymore. There was no higher narrative reason to do it, it was entirely an emotional internal decision based on "turns out we hate this, so we're going to drive home just how much we hate it by outright switching out the characters instead of just reinserting what we want back into the existing guy". That I understand. But I'm talking about the ideas of how they crafted things after that decision had been made. When they were then tasked with reconciling this Superman on this Earth. That's when I think this began to come together and where in part a deliberate symbolism in the idea to "restore" him first took shape, and that it was fully intended and still is to use what they came up with there (Reborn) as a template for the rest. I still believe we're simply not at that point yet where everything else carries over. Doomsday Clock is supposed to be the closing story of the Rebirth saga. If something like that doesn't happen within or by the time that story is done, then I'll concede its not in the cards. Until then though I still believe that is the plan. I'm not saying it will be executed with precision, or if it was even thought out with precision, but I do still think its the ultimate aim.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-14-2017 at 03:31 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  9. #9
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    I remember awhile ago, someone suggested that instead of the two years of Rebirth, we should have just gotten a page of Batman turning to the reader and saying "Sorry we screwed up," and then return to the old universe. Adding on to that idea, I would not have minded at all if the Rebirth one-shot had started with that page, and then just had the next 79 pages go over the new status quo's and histories of their characters and teams, mostly taking after Post-Crisis continuity, but removing some of the more universally despised aspects, and filling in the gaps with some Pre-Crisis elements, the few things from the Nu52 that really worked, and ideas that would flourish and/or be born in Rebirth.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Yeah, I hear some people state the current universe is mostly the old DCU again, but like you, I don't see it at all. Memories of a timeline no longer in existence don't count, but what is firmly established as history, retconned or not, in the existing continuity.
    I fully agree with this. And this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    The reason they started off restoring Superman isn't because he is the "first" but because they didn't want to continue to write and build stories off of his current New 52 continuity for Rebirth. So they completely changed the character and removed as much New 52 continuity as possible so the Rebirth stories could be what they are now, but that isn't the case for most characters as the New 52 continuity has continued to get built on in Rebirth rather than get changed or restored like with Superman.

    Many rebirth stories conflict with pre-Flashpoint stories. They can't coexist. So it isn't like they are buying time until the Rebirth story is finished so they can start to build on old pre-Flashpoint continuity again. They are building on what the New 52/Rebirth is now. Like in Nightwing Dick has never been to Bludhaven in the New 52/Rebirth universe until Rebirth and they basically built it up from scratch to be different from pre-Flashpoint continuity. They aren't going to throw all that out now. This is what Bludhaven is going to be going forward. Or in Titans where they had Lazurus Contract basically take the place of Judas Contract and be how Deathstroke interacted with the Titans for the first time. There would be no point in doing a story like Lazurus Contract if they had planned on bringing back the original Judas Contract story into continuity, or there would be no point in DC telling Priest that he can't bring back JC like he wanted if Rebirth was going to restore pre-Flashpoint continuity.
    ...is a good explanation for why I don't see things getting any better.

  10. #10
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    That is what they're doing. I much prefer books like Abnett's Aquaman where it is moving forward and telling new and exciting stories rather than rehashing older material. Aquaman's updated history (ala the New 52 with Johns/Parker) is just so rich and wonderful. I'm glad to see the 90s stuff gone away. It's there to read and revisit, but I don't want it in the modern stories.

    Tom King's BATMAN has a great approach too. It builds off older material in ways that move it forward and shed new light on ideas that have gotten a little dusty. That's the perfect use of continuity as old as a character like Batman's is.

    As for stuff like Superman Reborn? That's the opposite of innovative. It's entire gimmick is the idea that readers can "choose their own adventure" and that does not make for an enthralling world. A place where everything "happened" yet nothing matters. So much excess continuity that there ultimately is no continuity. In my mind everything has always happened in Superman's world, but I like a semblance of a "reality" still.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 09-14-2017 at 04:01 PM.
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  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSupernaut View Post
    I can't help but think that Rebirth would be much better if they used Pre-flashpoint as the foundation with the best elements of the new 52 mixed in; rather than the reverse. There's so many characters that feel like echoes of their former selves. Wally West, Donna Troy, Helena Bertinelli, Cassandra Cain, Tim Drake and Stephanie Brown to name a few. The Titans history is in disarray and no one knows for sure what's canon and what's not. Rebirth is better than what came before, but I can't help but feel something is missing.
    Agreed. Pre-FP would have worked a lot better. Most of the good New 52 runs weren't dependent on the new continuity anyway (Batman, Aquaman, the few good JL arcs - not the terrible first ones-, Green Lantern etc).
    The DCU loses a lot by not having Morrison's JLA, JLI, NTT, Perez's WW, Ostrander's Suicide Squad, Young Justice and so many other awesome stuff in its past.
    Instead we have watered down versions, especially in terms of team books. Look at how devoid of life current Titans is.

    They should have kept most of pre-FP continuity and changed what was needed, like WW not being a JL founder anymore or truly terrible stuff like Cry for Justice.

  12. #12
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    The reason they started off restoring Superman isn't because he is the "first" but because they didn't want to continue to write and build stories off of his current New 52 continuity for Rebirth. So they completely changed the character and removed as much New 52 continuity as possible so the Rebirth stories could be what they are now, but that isn't the case for most characters as the New 52 continuity has continued to get built on in Rebirth rather than get changed or restored like with Superman.

    Many rebirth stories conflict with pre-Flashpoint stories. They can't coexist. So it isn't like they are buying time until the Rebirth story is finished so they can start to build on old pre-Flashpoint continuity again. They are building on what the New 52/Rebirth is now. Like in Nightwing Dick has never been to Bludhaven in the New 52/Rebirth universe until Rebirth and they basically built it up from scratch to be different from pre-Flashpoint continuity. They aren't going to throw all that out now. This is what Bludhaven is going to be going forward. Or in Titans where they had Lazurus Contract basically take the place of Judas Contract and be how Deathstroke interacted with the Titans for the first time. There would be no point in doing a story like Lazurus Contract if they had planned on bringing back the original Judas Contract story into continuity, or there would be no point in DC telling Priest that he can't bring back JC like he wanted if Rebirth was going to restore pre-Flashpoint continuity.
    I would argue that seminal stories like the Judas Contact will always find their way back into continuity. Just give it time. Lazarus didn't resonate with readers all that much.

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