Star Trek: Discovery

[Carabas]

I got to ask, are there no therapists in the Star Trek universe? You'd think Starfleet would better screen people who join them.

She had a Vulcan therapist who gave her a clean bill of mental health.

And it worked, up to a point. She was perfectly fine until she ran into Klingons.

[Carabas]

Secretly beaming aboard the creature that just tried to kill members of your crew is pretty shady.

I don't.
It's what you do when you are trying to develop a Shroomdrive, and said creature may be a side effect of Shroom-powered space travel.

And you know what, even if he is shady as can be, he lives in an era TOS tells us is full of utterly deranged Starfleet Captains, and he's not the main character.

[Carabas]

I just don't buy it.

The people on the bridge will have seen her rapor with the captain and seen the events surrounding what happened.

Yes, and that speaks in her favour how?

I just don't buy she'd be demonised and loathed as much as she is in the show,

She is the only Starfleet mutineer ever, and she is widely held responsible for starting a war with the Klingons.
Do note that you as viewer have an omniscient viewpoint, and 99.999% of the Trek Verse has rumour and hearsay at best.

...especially given the crew would probably have to testify and assuming they didn't lie, Burnham's behaviour wasn't super crazy...

Yes, it was. Super mega crazy.

She forewarned of danger and wanted to avoid it, that much was obvious, she just failed.

There was also no way she could have possibly succeeded. Vulcan Hello would not have worked here.

As for killing T'Kuvma no one knows about that but her pretty much.

Do you seriously think she did not make a complete and full confession?

I just dont buy her so infamous but no one seeing it from her side, especially given all her predictions were correct.

Her predictions being correct is not relevant, nor is it any kind of excuse.
Attacking her Captain is relevant. 8000 dead is relevant. OnlyStarfleet mutineer ever is relevant.

[Iron Fist]

Yes, and that speaks in her favour how?

She is the only Starfleet mutineer ever, and she is widely held responsible for starting a war with the Klingons.
Do note that you as viewer have an omniscient viewpoint, and 99.999% of the Trek Verse has rumour and hearsay at best.


Yes, it was. Super mega crazy.


There was also no way she could have possibly succeeded. Vulcan Hello would not have worked here.


Do you seriously think she did not make a complete and full confession?


Her predictions being correct is not relevant, nor is it any kind of excuse.
Attacking her Captain is relevant. 8000 dead is relevant. OnlyStarfleet mutineer ever is relevant.

Assuming she fully confessed, all of her actions have justifications. Trying to use the vulcan plan to establish diplomatic relations, avenging her captain, even her mutiny has a logical basis. I find it hard to believe others have seen this and not completely understood her position.

Attacking her captain and the war are completely unrelated, we've no evidence a vulcan hello wouldn't have worked or made the situation resolve differently before the admiral arrived triggering the war.

There aren't many bad writing choices in this show, but since this is the cornerstone of the arc I find it flimsy at best that she'd seriously been seen as such a pariah when all of her behaviour seems to be in the big picture interests of starfleet.

[G. Boney]

I don't.
It's what you do when you are trying to develop a Shroomdrive, and said creature may be a side effect of Shroom-powered space travel.

And you know what, even if he is shady as can be, he lives in an era TOS tells us is full of utterly deranged Starfleet Captains, and he's not the main character.

Uh, okay. I have no problem with him being shady, just don't agree that he isn't. Seems to me the point of that last scene was to make him seem shady (even if that ends up being misdirection).

[Jokerz79]

Assuming she fully confessed, all of her actions have justifications. Trying to use the vulcan plan to establish diplomatic relations, avenging her captain, even her mutiny has a logical basis. I find it hard to believe others have seen this and not completely understood her position.

Attacking her captain and the war are completely unrelated, we've no evidence a vulcan hello wouldn't have worked or made the situation resolve differently before the admiral arrived triggering the war.

There aren't many bad writing choices in this show, but since this is the cornerstone of the arc I find it flimsy at best that she'd seriously been seen as such a pariah when all of her behaviour seems to be in the big picture interests of starfleet.

She committed the first act of mutiny in Starfleet history. Her actions helped start a war rather than trying to stop the war from happening she chose revenge over diplomacy even if it hadn't worked it is the action as a Starfleet officer she should had taken. You don't get medals for those actions you get prison and the only unbelievable thing about it is she was ever allowed on another Starfleet vessel.

[Iron Fist]

She committed the first act of mutiny in Starfleet history. Her actions helped start a war rather than trying to stop the war from happening she chose revenge over diplomacy even if it hadn't worked it is the action as a Starfleet officer she should had taken. You don't get medals for those actions you get prison and the only unbelievable thing about it is she was ever allowed on another Starfleet vessel.

I find blaming the war on her kinda suspect, also doesn't explain why people behave like she's Charles Manson.

[Jokerz79]

I find blaming the war on her kinda suspect, also doesn't explain why people behave like she's Charles Manson.

Because the Federation is a world with virtually no crime, no war, no poverty, and no diseases as it has been said you look outside Starfleet Academy you see Paradise to that kind of society her actions would be monstrous.

[MoneySpider]

Same reason Picard quoted Shakespeare at every opportunity.

Great point. And it's not like Khan Noonien Singh and General Chang weren't quoting authors in the Star Trek movies. Khan also quoted Milton in "Space Seed"... Kirk quoted Dickens (or read a line from "A Tale of Two Cities" in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan")...

I wonder if Michael Burnham quoting "Alice in Wonderland" was Nick Meyer's idea...seems like something right up his alley.

[Pinsir]

The thing with Star Trek is that it very Eurocentric, in part because Star Trek writers really arn't incredibly well informed about non-European literature and history. Its rare a non-white historical figure is ever brought up, the most frequent person being Sun Tzu because "le ancient oriental wisdom."

The thing also with Alice and Wonder is it isn't really that great of a book and the majority of people who make illusions to it have never read it.

[Iron Fist]

Because the Federation is a world with virtually no crime, no war, no poverty, and no diseases as it has been said you look outside Starfleet Academy you see Paradise to that kind of society her actions would be monstrous.

Be nice if they actually brought this up for context for why her crimes were so greatly exaggerated in their social effect.

[Powertool]

I have seen nothing of this in this show so far.

I expected nothing different from a person who saw nothing wrong with Ghostbusters 2016. But I suppose that recalling old shames is pointless in the context of this argument.

Also, what twist?

At worst you have a Captain played by Lucius Malfoy, that the writers are having fun with. He has not actually done anything shady yet.

Another user already answered to this point.

Same reason Picard quoted Shakespeare at every opportunity.

No, that was General Chang from Star Trek VI, a totally different character. Picard may have quoted his fair share of works by Shakespeare over 7 seasons of TNG but having see all of them I know that you're clearly exaggerating that aspect of his character to present it as a justification for the misguided attempts of the writing team of giving the protagonist a semblance of psyhological/intellectual depth. Without the appropriate context, no way that trick could ever work.

Because she is mentally ill.

Due to not one but two Klingon-related childhood traumas she has severe untreated PTSD (the Vulcan method "just supress it and it'll go away" doesn't really work for humans). And when she was suddenly faced with the source of her trauma she predictably completely fell to pieces.

It's Sarek's fault, really. Damn space elves.

The likelier interpretation is that she's just the latest product of Alex Kurtzmann's xenophobic, neoconservative ethos, previously shown in Into Darkness. The Vulcans turned into warmongering racists ("Vulcan hello" my @$$)? Check. The protagonist sounds like Donald Trump's lovechild with Dick Cheney? Check. A species that DS9 worked its ass off to portray as an entirety of people turned right back into a cartoon stereotype? Check. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

[thwhtGuardian]

I expected nothing different from a person who saw nothing wrong with Ghostbusters 2016. But I suppose that recalling old shames is pointless in the context of this argument.





Another user already answered to this point.



No, that was General Chang from Star Trek VI, a totally different character. Picard may have quoted his fair share of works by Shakespeare over 7 seasons of TNG but having see all of them I know that you're clearly exaggerating that aspect of his character to present it as a justification for the misguided attempts of the writing team of giving the protagonist a semblance of psyhological/intellectual depth. Without the appropriate context, no way that trick could ever work.



The likelier interpretation is that she's just the latest product of Alex Kurtzmann's xenophobic, neoconservative ethos, previously shown in Into Darkness. The Vulcans turned into warmongering racists ("Vulcan hello" my @$$)? Check. The protagonist sounds like Donald Trump's lovechild with Dick Cheney? Check. A species that DS9 worked its ass off to portray as an entirety of people turned right back into a cartoon stereotype? Check. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

I think the quotes from Alice were given the perfect context at the end of the episode, the book is her only connection to her past so it would make sense that in a moment of stress she'd think back to it.

[Carabas]

Be nice if they actually brought this up for context for why her crimes were so greatly exaggerated in their social effect.

You don't even need that context.

[Carabas]

I expected nothing different from a person who saw nothing wrong with Ghostbusters 2016. But I suppose that recalling old shames is pointless in the context of this argument.

Oh, it's you... Nevermind then.