Star Trek: Discovery

[SXVA]

The visual change is a pretty huge change.

Also, they were more like a Viking warrior race before as the previous series progressed deeper into the mythos, which were about honor and battle and now they seem to be purely religious zealots here, which combined with the visual change is a pretty big overall change to the Klingons seen before i'd think.

From an article on screenrant,
http://screenrant.com/star-trek-disc...canon-changes/
"So far, some fans feel Discovery has failed the Klingons on several fronts. The first, and perhaps most controversial, issue has been the radical physical overhaul of the species. The forehead ridges and sharpened teeth have been abandoned in favor of something much more alien; Discovery’s Klingons are hairless, monstrous looking creatures, with inky black and purple skin. The traditional Klingon armor has been jettisoned in favor of elaborate, colorful clothing that looks like it would be much more at home in a Star Wars movie than a Star Trek television show. The producers have justified these changes by noting the series’ prior visual overhaul of the Klingons, but that change has a justifiable – if overly complicated – explanation. There seems no way to reconcile the appearance of Discovery’s Klingons with what came before and after this point in the franchise’s timeline.

Unfortunately, the surface level change in appearance is the least of the issues with these Klingons. The Klingons have often been shown to be a religious people – the oft mentioned Kahless is essentially the Klingon version of Jesus – but this particular brand of religious fanaticism is something new, and decidedly out of step with what we know about the Klingons. They’re portrayed as an unsophisticated, even animalistic race here – the scene between Voq and L’Rell where they discuss eating the corpse of Captain Georgiou was eye opening, to say the least. They’re obsessed with their faith and racial purity to the point of parody. Why the Klingon empire would go to war with the Federation on the basis of the martyrdom of one particularly whacko zealot, T’Kuvma, is never really fully explained, and it makes the Klingons seem like two dimensional cartoon villains, which is a level of thematic laziness Star Trek has always strived to avoid. Star Trek’s villains have always had very clear motivations, often even sympathetic ones, but it’s difficult in any way to figure out what to make of Discovery’s Klingons.

The producers of the show took another big risk in their portrayal of the Klingons. Unless they’re speaking directly to humans, the Klingons in Discovery all speak in subtitled Klingon. That’s a cool, admirably realistic notion that Star Trek and many other science fiction series tend to side step in favor of narrative clarity. It turns out those other shows knew what they were doing; every scene that features a room full of Klingons stiffly spitting the alien language at each other through their gigantic prosthetic teeth results in the show screeching to a halt. It is not easy for actors buried in that much makeup and prosthetics while speaking a made up language to give compelling performances, though the performers do their best."

Perhaps the least effective aspect of the series so far is the notion of attaching real world 2017 issues of racism and nationalism onto the Klingons. There is, of course, plenty of precedent for the Klingons to serve as allegories for real world social issues. Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country did a beautiful job of exploiting their roots as Russian analogs to tell a smart, morally complicated story that reflected the real world end of the Cold War, and The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine similarly explored stories about integrating lifelong enemies into post-war alliances. The racial purity angle of Discovery’s Klingons not only has little precedent in the franchise’s past, it is, to this point, just not very well executed. It makes the already thinly drawn characters all the more off putting, an enemy who are nearly impossible to empathize with on any level.

Most of these issues, on their own, would not be fatal. But the sheer breadth of problems endured by Discovery’s Klingons so early in the show’s run has made their potential longterm success a severe uphill battle. The show has, admittedly, been spending most of its time with Burnham, as she readjusts to her life as an infamous mutineer on the Discovery. But the show is simply not going to work if the Klingons remain such faceless, charmless antagonists. Discovery needs to remember what made the Klingons so beloved to start with, and find a way to make them as compelling as our Starfleet heroes, or this may end up becoming a hollow venture."

-----

I can't say i disagree with most of that.

[Carabas]

The visual change is a pretty huge change.

Yes. So? Not the first time they've had a pretty big visual redo.

Also, they were more like a Viking warrior race before as the previous series progressed deeper into the mythos, which were about honor and battle and now they seem to be purely religious zealots here, which combined with the visual change is a pretty big overall change to the Klingons seen before i'd think.

Viking warrior type guys are generally pretty zealotous in their religions.
Also, only T'Kuvma and is followers have displayed anything like this. The other Klingons are your bog standard Klingon opportunist backstabbers we saw so much of in TOS and TNG.

...the scene between Voq and L’Rell where they discuss eating the corpse of Captain Georgiou was eye opening, to say the least...

Klingons feasting on the heart of a defeated foe is not exactly a new thing in Trek. Time-honoured tradition more like. It's canon.

They’re obsessed with their faith and racial purity to the point of parody.

They're not actually interested in racial purity.
They're into ideological purity.

Perhaps the least effective aspect of the series so far is the notion of attaching real world 2017 issues of racism and nationalism onto the Klingons.

But every single last Star Trek alien ever (except Vulcans, maybe) has existed as little more than a metaphor for real world problems. Remember TNG Ferengi? TOS Klingons were basically a yellow peril species.

[SXVA]

Fair enough. You make some good points.

The change still feels like too much to me though. Logical or not. Right or wrong. I can't escape the feeling at this time that's it's not the Klingons i know or want. I'm staying with the series and so hopefully that will change in time. I just think it would've been better to make them a new alien race but it's done now, no point going on and on about it when it's probably not going to revert back at this stage. Just gotta try and embrace it and adjust.

[nx01a]

Klingons of any era were always a bunch of brutal murderhobos who pretended they were decent people because of honour, nevermind that most of them conniving backstabbers who wouldn't know honour if they sat on it.
Worf was not a typical Klingon.
The message of the show so far is "Hard Men Making Hard Choices does not work." It's the anti-24.

Gowron, Martok, Martok's wife, Kang, Koloth, Kor, Kolos, even Chang and countless others... All of them were strong, capable beings, and the ones who were antagonistic weren't outright evil and inhuman.

Fair enough. You make some good points.
The change still feels like too much to me though. Logical or not. Right or wrong. I can't escape the feeling at this time that's it's not the Klingons i know or want. I'm staying with the series and so hopefully that will change in time. I just think it would've been better to make them a new alien race but it's done now, no point going on and on about it when it's probably not going to revert back at this stage. Just gotta try and embrace it and adjust.

I feel the same way.
Even worse, BBC America's showing TNG 'Where No One Has Gone Before' right now as I write this. The comparison is... jarring. There's no coming back from the horrors of the first Discovery arc. This is Trek now.

I'd also like to say that I'm glad we can all have a reasonable discussion even if there are quite varied views on the subject matter.

[Mia]

She's not a Shrew? I find her insufferable a

You might find her 'insufferable' but that does not make her a shrew. From what I remember of the first episode she was brought on as a as an anthropologist helping the Earth-based Starfleet understand and engage new cultures in outer space. It's clear from her frequent comments about attending the Vulcan Science Academy, she's not a career officer who came up through the ranks of Starfleet. And she is clearly influenced more by pragmatism of the dangers out in the world. Than notions that the universe is sunshine and roses and devoid of predators. Two episodes in it's clear that she's meant to be a work in progress and will grow and take on new qualities.

For the life of me can't understand how she was ever a Starfleet Officer outside of maybe Section 31.

I have no idea what Section 31 is. But frankly most of the cast members on this show don't behave like the congenial or genteel Star Fleet officers I'm used in the previous shows. Whether it's that Stamet's constant talking back to the captain (which I find unprofessional and disrespectful) and the immaturity of Wiseman.

What!!?

I'd highly recommend someday if you ever have the free time to give them another chance. Those are my two favorite Trek series.

There's been numerous times where i didn't connect with a series at first for whatever various reasons and i then went back again at another time and enjoyed them immensely. Maybe they just aren't for you but might be worth giving it another try.

I absolutely loved TNG, and was quite thrilled about the additional series. But I really just found the other two series a tedious chore. And it really didn't help that I
couldn't get into the cast of characters.

[Jokerz79]

Section 31 was created in DS9 it's a secret division of Starfleet Intelligence that most don't know about it's only known to the highest levels of Starfleet. They have existed since the Enterprise era and predate even the Federation. Basically they do the things Starfleet and the Federation can't to keep the Federation and it's interest safe. It's the we'll break every rule and belief our society has to protect it logic. Many fans were wondering if Discovery was a Section 31 ship at the start of this show but it seems to be publicly known so that kind of went out the window. But learning if the captain or any other crew members might be Section 31 wouldn't shock me.

[Carabas]

Not when it happens consistantly.

Gowron, Martok, Martok's wife, Kang, Koloth, Kor, Kolos, even Chang and countless others... All of them were strong, capable beings, and the ones who were antagonistic weren't outright evil and inhuman.

Just picking the first one, Gowron was a murderous and conniving bastard who cheated his way to victory, with the honour of a Ferengi.

There was a lot of glossing over the Klingon's flaws in the later TNG/DS9 era.

[nx01a]

Not when it happens consistantly.
Just picking the first one, Gowron was a murderous and conniving bastard who cheated his way to victory, with the honour of a Ferengi.
There was a lot of glossing over the Klingon's flaws in the later TNG/DS9 era.

Well, the entire series and war are based on a no win situation.

Gowron was a politician. Goes with the territory but he didn't do anything ridiculously stupid or bloodthirsty until he finally lost it at the end of DS9. The humanization of alien characters and allied races is perhaps inevitable. The Klingons were flawed but I never saw them as the horrific beings presented on DSC.

[thwhtGuardian]

Well, the entire series and war are based on a no win situation.

Gowron was a politician. Goes with the territory but he didn't do anything ridiculously stupid or bloodthirsty until he finally lost it at the end of DS9. The humanization of alien characters and allied races is perhaps inevitable. The Klingons were flawed but I never saw them as the horrific beings presented on DSC.

They don't really seem all that horrific to me.

[Carabas]

The Klingons were flawed but I never saw them as the horrific beings presented on DSC.

I think that your memories of the Klingons do not match up to how they actually were very well. Especially to how they were before they spent 7 series of TNG growing ever more cuddly and toothless.

[Agent Z]

I think that your memories of the Klingons do not match up to how they actually were very well. Especially to how they were before they spent 7 series of TNG growing ever more cuddly and toothless.

If they were "cuddly and toothless" in TNG isn't it safe to say they weren't always like how they were in Discovery?

[Carabas]

If they were "cuddly and toothless" in TNG isn't it safe to say they weren't always like how they were in Discovery?

They didn't start out that way at all in TNG. They just grew that way over the course of seven seasons largely because of Worf and Picard took an interest in Klingon politics.

Discovery is on episode 6.

[MichaelC]

But every single last Star Trek alien ever (except Vulcans, maybe) has existed as little more than a metaphor for real world problems. Remember TNG Ferengi? TOS Klingons were basically a yellow peril species.

More specifically, the Klingons were the Asian other as barbarians. Cossacks and Mongolian hordes and that sort of thing. The Romulans were the Asian other as coldly sterile and lifeless, which is how the West viewed the Chinese and North Koreans.

[Jokerz79]

Here's Kor from TOS he's the bad guy and making threats but he's also charming and trying to appeal to Kirk find common ground to get what he wants and is even sweet talking him. https://youtu.be/3GbXWgzUI0U These Klingon's seem nothing like STD I can hardly believe they are same species let alone the same species from the same time period.

[thwhtGuardian]

Here's Kor from TOS he's the bad guy and making threats but he's also charming and trying to appeal to Kirk find common ground to get what he wants and is even sweet talking him. https://youtu.be/3GbXWgzUI0U These Klingon's seem nothing like STD I can hardly believe they are same species let alone the same species from the same time period.

I don't see why they can't act in both manners, why some can't be more brutal while others are more reasonable...especially as the Klingons from the Motion Picture and subsequent films and TNG didn't act like Kor and the other ToS Klingons either. So one can either just accept that until the latter seasons of TNG and DS9 there was no real consistent portrayal of the Klingons and so there is no real continuity to be compared to or you can accept that there's a lot of diversity in the Klingon Empire.