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  1. #721
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    I wouldn't mind seeing the character return. The only downside to this episode was Burnham at the end. Burnham is good when teamed with outer space Newt Scamander. The crew is good without Burnham. The second they connected again the show felt...off.
    To me it's because it seemed the payoff was snatched from them. All the subplots were about the crew working together in their own ways to work towards finding Michael. But getting the engines up, fixing comms, and getting the ship out of parasitic ice seems less drastic if Michael swoops in and does all that for them (yes yes, Discovery's comms are down but Michael is in a much more sophisticated ship which likely could patch through regardless).

    Yeah, my only gripe is Burnham in the end because it's a little too quick and convenient, and even overrides their work.

  2. #722
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    To me it's because it seemed the payoff was snatched from them. All the subplots were about the crew working together in their own ways to work towards finding Michael. But getting the engines up, fixing comms, and getting the ship out of parasitic ice seems less drastic if Michael swoops in and does all that for them (yes yes, Discovery's comms are down but Michael is in a much more sophisticated ship which likely could patch through regardless).

    Yeah, my only gripe is Burnham in the end because it's a little too quick and convenient, and even overrides their work.
    But if Burnham doesn't save them all the time they might get the idea that they can survive on their own. If they start to believe that this might turn into an actual Star Trek show, can't have that.

    This show can be many things.
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    Trek? Nah, Dawg.
    Last edited by Anthony W; 10-24-2020 at 09:18 PM. Reason: Forgot Terminator and Avatar
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  3. #723
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    at least the show did not drag out this 'search for michael' subplot. some shows would have gone at least half the season if not the full season before it can finish that subplot. at least now it's done , they can concentrate on what to do next together.

  4. #724
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    Calling it now, hope nobody’s done it already: “The Burn” is somehow going to be short for Michael Burnham

  5. #725
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thezmage View Post
    Calling it now, hope nobody’s done it already: “The Burn” is somehow going to be short for Michael Burnham
    Sorry about that, friend

  6. #726
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    At the end of a shooting day, do you suppose Doug (Saru) Jones' shoulders and neck ache like mad? That gait can not be comfortable.

  7. #727
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    While I wish there was a little more focus on the two sides involved I did like that the issue was solved with out weapons in the end.

  8. #728
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    While I wish there was a little more focus on the two sides involved I did like that the issue was solved with out weapons in the end.
    Didn't get why the human raiders had to wear masks. If they thought they were going to get fired on no matter what why bother with the disguise? Was it just for the audience's benefit? It reminded me of a bad Scooby Doo episode.

    Also, SHUT UP NEW WESLEY CRUSHER!. That is what I'm going to call that character, New Wesley Crusher or NWC for short.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  9. #729
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    I liked this episode quite a bit. It was a fairly well worn Star Trek premise, but the character work continues to be amazing. Captain Saru remains the single greatest asset in the toolbox. Doug Jones deserves Emmy's he's never going to win. But stuff like the moment between Michael and Georgiou, or revisiting Detmer's PTSD or whatever is going on there were gold. I think this is probably the most interesting Michael is ever going to get. They've finally found a balance for the character that lets the actress do meaningful work, and which feels natural. She's still just about the least interesting thing on the entire ship, but at least she's finally a bit likeable.

    I'm not won over by the new character, but I'm glad they didn't make the symbiont Dax (at least so far, given the Tal name I think we're safe, but you never know), so there's that.

    Detmer's thing looks to be pure trauma, and not some kind of alien/AI possession. Makes a certain amount of sense, considering she's now suffered TWO major head injuries on the job (the one in the first episode of this season, and the one at the Binary Stars back at the very beginning of S1 that ended up with her getting the implant she has now). Now she's a little bit afraid of the action, enough to openly question her captain's orders on the bridge. But not so much that she doesn't get the work done. I'm curious where they're going here. But finally bringing the character to the fore is a great start.

    This season has started off quite strong. But Disco's biggest problems have always come late season, when they need to pay off everything and stick landings. Still a ways to go before I'm willing to say the show has turned a corner. But it finally FEELS like Star Trek in a really meaningful way, even while doing it's own things. And more Saru will never be a bad thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Didn't get why the human raiders had to wear masks. If they thought they were going to get fired on no matter what why bother with the disguise? Was it just for the audience's benefit? It reminded me of a bad Scooby Doo episode.
    To appear intimidating, and not reveal that they were just a bunch of starving, overcrowded, poorly equipped peasants knocking on the door of a fortified castle. If the UE knew who/what they were really up against, I expect they would have just moved against Titan in force, and killed everyone. The costumes kept the Earthers off guard, and let the Titan pirates do their thing.

  10. #730
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    You can hear Leonard Nimoy's Spock voice during the message from Admiral Tal when it gets staticky saying "The Federation lives on." It's at the 6:50 mark.
    Last edited by Styles; 10-30-2020 at 02:35 PM.

  11. #731
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    I'm hesitant to get my hopes up too high, but with this fourth episode in a row that I've really liked, I feel like Disco might be hitting it's stride.

    They've even made me like Burnham. The less constrained personality let's SMG actually do something with the role, and look like she's having fun. The scene on the way to the shuttle with Adira was just absolute gold.

    Saru is amazing, as always. Doug Jones could carry this show on his back if he had too. But we got great moments for Stamets and Detmer this week as well. I've really been enjoying the slow burn PTSD story with Detmer. I hope they aren't going to completely move away from it now that she's willing to open up and admit something is wrong. And Culber works really well as the heart at the center of the group. The senior staff dinner was probably my favorite sequence. It genuinely feels like this group is growing together like a family. We're not all the way there, but it's such a mammoth improvement over where we were.

    I'm not going to lie, I had concerns about this season. The first two years of this show were carried really hard by the Captain (Isaacs in S1, at least until they threw the character under the bus in the Mirror Universe, and Mount in S2) with an honorable mention to Doug Jones. In S2 it really felt like the strongest parts of the show were when they opened up the ensemble a bit and gave any of the smaller characters stuff to do, but it happened so rarely, I feared that Jones might not be presence enough to keep the show afloat in the 32nd century. But not only have they embraced Saru as the force he has grown into, but they've opened up the ensemble to a much greater degree. The show is still focused on the "main" cast, but it feels much freer in the way it uses it's characters.

    Can Disco make it 5 straight next week? Here's hoping!

  12. #732
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    This was the first bad episode.

    1:33 Hey, it's the R2 units! I hate them so much.

    1:47 "It's starting to hit everyone,just how little we have to hold on to" This would mean something if they put in the work to make us care about the crew. They didn't so I don't.

    2:47 Tilly fell asleep at work. That makes her relatable...oh wait no it doesn't.

    2:52 "When we find the Federation. It's become a mantra for our crew" I hope they find the Federation, but Kurtzman and company have been trying for awhile now and nothing.

    5:24 Off to Trill

    8:00 Saru "Hello we have a host and symbiote onboard but we won't tell you that the host is human so it can generate maximum drama and almost lead to our crew getting killed when they beam down."

    8:36 Saru " Stamets start finding new ways to jump, you almost died and with the shortage we can't afford to become sitting ducks. Yes I'm the same guy that sent the other two crew members down to Trill to get shot at. I'm only smart when the writers need me to be. You'll see what I mean by the end of this episode. "

    11:13 Michael should be the one to take the new Wesley Crusher to the surface because everything is about Michael

    12:51 Wesley doesn't get why Michael gets to horn in on this storyline and make it about herself. Welcome to Discovery Wesley.

    15:08 Culber just said "Discovery could disappear tomorrow and it wouldn't make a ripple. No one would miss us our mourn us" META! META! META! META! META! META!

    16:17 "Surely our captain told you folks the host was human"

    17:55 "We no longer have enough viable host" Hmmm....Watches Deep Space Nine episode "Equilibrium" that says that half their population is capable of being joined at exactly 39:42 and that they keep it a secret so people won't start fighting over symbiotes. Now Discovery's writers can use Burnham and the crew to help Trill society realise this.

    45:59 Nah

    46:38 Oh, this tied into the dinner that I didn't cover because I didn't care enough about the crew.

    Oh, and remember when I said that Calypso was setting up the ship being alive? Well, this show is even more like Andromeda.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  13. #733
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post

    2:47 Tilly fell asleep at work. That makes her relatable...oh wait no it doesn't.
    She's pushing herself so hard at work that she nearly feel asleep. Because of all the stress of leaving everything they knew behind and now having no familiar points of connection to cling to. This moment, though small, is just one example of so many in this episode of the core theme. They all feel divorced from their reality, and they're all struggling with it. It wasn't about making Tilly relatable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    11:13 Michael should be the one to take the new Wesley Crusher to the surface because everything is about Michael
    If you can't see the obvious thematic parallels between Adira, who needs to confront her pain and move forward to connect to her trill symbiont, and Michael, who has changed so much in her year head start in the 32nd century that she can't connect to the people around her, to see why they sent Michael on the away mission, then there's really nothing to be said. Culber's admittedly lame excuses aside, Michael getting the job is absolutely the correct writing choice, thematically. Helping Adira through this trial is part of Burnham's journey back to Starfleet.

    I have plenty of issues with Burnham, as a character. And with a fair bit of the writing in the first two seasons. But this episode did it's job wonderfully. Both the A and B plots hit the same notes, in different ways and flow back together to begin the story of broken people healing. Of people who feel all alone remembering that they stand side by side with people who they care about, who feel just like them. It doesn't offer any easy answers, everyone still has to accept what's wrong and do the work. (See Detmer, who finally admits weakness and reaches out to Culber for help. The show doesn't have her miraculously get better, but take just the first step on a long road.)

    You go on and on about how you don't care about the crew because they haven't been focused on enough. But that's what this season has been addressing. This episode in particular felt like the first real step away from coworkers we hardly know and towards family.

    Future episodes may very well drop that ball, we'll have to see. But I disagree with you pretty much across the board on this one.

  14. #734
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    One point of confusion for me: Saru invites the senior staff (and Georgiou*) for dinner. Dr. Culber is there -- except he's at least 2nd in medical rank. He's not the ship's chief doctor, it's Dr. Pollard. The show has Pollard on so infrequently that Culber should have been the CMO from the start -- there's no good reason from a narrative standpoint to have Culber be a subordinate yet play the role he consistently plays in these types of episodes; we never even see him actually report to Dr. Pollard in any way, only to discuss findings or collaborate or such. If it really was for senior staff, then Dr. Pollard should be at that dinner.

    Discovery isn't the only one to confuse main cast with senior officer, though. Voyager often treated Ensign Kim as a senior staff member, even though he was one of the most junior of the entire crew, and early on also took orders from supporting cast. On DS9 Nog was also sometimes treated as senior staff, even though he was an ensign who reported to Chief O'Brien and rarely, if ever, supervised anyone on either the station or the Defiant. TNG, though, was consistent about not having Worf and LaForge at staff meetings (aside from special circumstances) until their promotions, and Wesley was almost never at those meetings unless called for.

    *Also, Michelle Yeoh is forever queen, but the character of Empress Georgiou is still highly problematic. The captain invited an interstellar fascist with a proven track record of cosmic genocide to break bread with his crew. Would you invite your colleagues and brothers-in-arms to dine with Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, or Hitler? HELL. NO. Unless Saru sees himself as Churchill or FDR to Georgiou's Stalin.

    And though Jett Reno isn't senior staff, I bet she would've had the best lines ever if she saw all that drama.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post

    17:55 "We no longer have enough viable host" Hmmm....Watches Deep Space Nine episode "Equilibrium" that says that half their population is capable of being joined at exactly 39:42 and that they keep it a secret so people won't start fighting over symbiotes. Now Discovery's writers can use Burnham and the crew to help Trill society realise this.
    The thing is, though, Discovery was from a time when Trills were known but symbiotes were not (first revealed in TNG) and the show made it clear that the Discovery crew was finding out the true nature of Trills and Symbiotes for the first time. They don't have that historical knowledge that could come with it, and as this same episode pointed out, the Trill population suffered immensely (maybe even disproportionately so, since joined Trills tended to be storied space travelers) from the Burn. The Trills are likely more open now to the idea of deviating from their cultural norms, but "half" of a devastated and endangered population could still be a tiny number. Agreeing to help or helping to affect a historical change is one thing, but Discovery -- and it seems those priests as well -- don't know how many are actually left, whether or not they can be hosts.

    On a side, I'm impressed that the opaque electric pool, the ritual, the salute, and the robes (white for the host, red for the priests) seen in this episode are all direct references to Equilibrium. That episode was also the first to introduce the idea that Trill have their own names, which are then replaced with the symbiote's name upon joining.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Future episodes may very well drop that ball, we'll have to see.
    This is what I'm wary of. S1 started off okay if not disjointed (like most other Trek shows), but the 2nd half of the Mirror Universe arc and the near-death of the Federation from a surprise war really hurt the way it ended. S2 started off much stronger, but the last couple episodes were pretty nonsensical despite the massive battle.

    I liked this episode a lot and it maybe the first one this season that got me good at an emotional level, but we're still pretty early into the season, too.

    P.S. I very much like that the show finally acknowledged -- and named -- Burnham being a Responsibility Hoarder. Again, I've no problems with her being the central character, and I quite like her a lot, but in S2 even subplots about the supporting cast were about Burnham solving their problems for them, while simultaneously Burnham dealing with both the Spock hunt *and* the Red Angel mystery. That in itself doesn't make her appealing since it takes away attention from the others but moreso, repeatedly puts her in danger by her own making. For someone who's 2nd in command both officially and unofficially, as someone who realistically could have been captain instead of Saru, she doesn't know the first idea about... delegation. Even Data delegated tasks, and he's a superfast, superaccurate android with infinite stamina (forget the "fully functional" jokes).
    Last edited by Cyke; 11-06-2020 at 01:18 AM.

  15. #735
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    She's pushing herself so hard at work that she nearly feel asleep. Because of all the stress of leaving everything they knew behind and now having no familiar points of connection to cling to. This moment, though small, is just one example of so many in this episode of the core theme. They all feel divorced from their reality, and they're all struggling with it. It wasn't about making Tilly relatable.
    No it was just more "That's our Tilly, what can you do?" Everyone is stressed out and pushing themselves but can you imagine anyone else falling asleep at work? Nope, just Tilly. Why? Because "That's our Tilly, what can you do?"

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    If you can't see the obvious thematic parallels between Adira, who needs to confront her pain and move forward to connect to her trill symbiont, and Michael, who has changed so much in her year head start in the 32nd century that she can't connect to the people around her, to see why they sent Michael on the away mission, then there's really nothing to be said. Culber's admittedly lame excuses aside, Michael getting the job is absolutely the correct writing choice, thematically. Helping Adira through this trial is part of Burnham's journey back to Starfleet.
    I'm sorry but I disagree. Culber would have been a better choice. Compare Burnhan's gap year to Culber being dead being in the mycelial network and then coming back from the dead and then having to adjust. He was the far better choice. But, everything that happens aboard Discovery must be about Burnham so she has to be the one to go. Do you know where Burnham should have been? Burnham should have been at the dinner party so she could see first hand the damage everyone that choose to follow her is going through. It would have really put her little "woe is me the crew wants so much from me" speech she gave to Culber into perspective. I was waiting for Culber to say "sorry for inconveniencing you, we only gave up what amounted to everything we knew to make sure your little plan worked. Sorry that your gap year is over and you can't hang out with Outer Space Newt Scamander so you can do your "Fantastic Beat And Where To Find Them" routine. Instead he gives her an undeserved ego boost.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    I have plenty of issues with Burnham, as a character. And with a fair bit of the writing in the first two seasons. But this episode did it's job wonderfully. Both the A and B plots hit the same notes, in different ways and flow back together to begin the story of broken people healing. Of people who feel all alone remembering that they stand side by side with people who they care about, who feel just like them. It doesn't offer any easy answers, everyone still has to accept what's wrong and do the work. (See Detmer, who finally admits weakness and reaches out to Culber for help. The show doesn't have her miraculously get better, but take just the first step on a long road.)
    Except Burnham was never alone. She was with Book almost immediately after exiting the wormhole who then took her to the Starfleet rep. You know who was alone? Culber when he died and then was stuck in the network. The Detmer stuff works but it's two steps forward one step back because Burnham should have been at the dinner, but you can't have that. It might make Burnham feel sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    You go on and on about how you don't care about the crew because they haven't been focused on enough. But that's what this season has been addressing. This episode in particular felt like the first real step away from coworkers we hardly know and towards family.

    Future episodes may very well drop that ball, we'll have to see. But I disagree with you pretty much across the board on this one.
    This is what I was afraid of. The first two episodes were two different shows and both were good. Now Burnham is reunited with Discovery and....ugh.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

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