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  1. #16
    BANNED Matt the Manly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Here's the very next page

    http://postimg.org/image/s92luy499/

    At what point in that was Superman ever containing the dust speck sized black hole on his own?

    We only ever see him holding it through its still there but faltering containment field, or with green lantern's help. They do the magnetic field thing two pages later.
    The containment field is still there after the black hole has "blown" by the last page. So obviously once he damaged the field with HV , Supes was all that was holding the black hole from blowing apart

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    No....its then a case of Superman being slightly slower than light as opposed to being slightly faster than light. The rules say "highend consistent feats. So if its a case of Superman being slightly slower than light on a couple of occasions as opposed to being faster than light on another couple of occasions, which feats should be chosen?

    And why do you keep bringing up an issue where entire sentences were spoken between before the beam was even released as proof of superman being slower than light? There can be surely better instances than that. This being the same arc where Flash needed to speed lend Supes and Jonn to be faster than thought
    I keep bringing it up because you keep ignoring it to talk about FTL, and presumably since he can on his own contain black holes powerful enough to wipe out solar systems, planet busting +++++ Superman.

    And why do you keep bringing up an issue where entire sentences were spoken between before the beam was even released as proof of superman being slower than light? There can be surely better instances than that. This being the same arc where Flash needed to speed lend Supes and Jonn to be faster than thought
    You know that was while they were preparing the beam for launch and firing it around the planet, right? You know the "sentences" you're talking about including Adam Strange saying how the beam itself isn't quite ready yet? You're basing your entire ignoring of this on something not even fully powered until.

    Action comics 642.
    Oh, the comic with ftl Deadman. That's certainly one to cite for clean performances.

    No....its then a case of Superman being slightly slower than light as opposed to being slightly faster than light. The rules say "highend consistent feats. So if its a case of Superman being slightly slower than light on a couple of occasions as opposed to being faster than light on another couple of occasions, which feats should be chosen?
    I'm going to boil this down to where you seem to think you get to say this from. Can you find me some examples of the Silver Surfer being put into a race with lightspeed speedsters and only being able to keep up? The Surfer saying he can't go ftl? The race of being (which would have to be the Surfer's race to be accurate for this, Heralds are given power sets with several marked out differences in things from overall power to specific abilities) the Surfer is part of being presented as the speed peers of a guy who tops out at lightspeed under maximum strain?

    Your "faster than light" examples contradict you wanting to go "I'm not saying he's as fast as the Flash!". If you think he can legit overcome planet freezing between nanoseconds time dilation, why exactly is he not jobbing when the Flash ridiculously outspeeds him?

    Superman is repeatedly shown as being slower than, for instance, the Wally West Flash. The feats you talk about, if they didn't, say, contain things like Deadman also being able to ignore said time freeze, because apparently ghosts can just move within nanoseconds and "ignore time slowing", as far as maybe something funky going on there, would put him on that speed level instead. It would mean Wally has been jobbing Supes out for /years/. You can keep saying "consistent feats!" but it doesn't make that go away. Or that Superman gets put against ftl speedsters and marked out in his own words as being slower, or in the case of people well slower than Wally, as fast. These feats you talk about contradict and ignore that. They ignore the abilities of other characters and their performances. They ignore Superman's own setup. And it doesn't help that you're making this as part of an argument as far as talking about stronger than solar system busting Superman. It certainly makes your argument extremely familiar, but not per se helps it.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 07-13-2014 at 05:34 PM.

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt the Manly View Post
    Supermans hand is glowing because he held a glowing black hole in his hand
    I didn't even get the first part. Dude held a black hole from breaking througj, something that would have destroyed the solar system . Even if he did it momentarily thats a huge feat
    Its also completely nonsensical because A) the force it was leaking was shown to affect him through his durability just fine while he was running to it, and B) a Black Hole's damage is caused by gravity, and Clark's hands don't have the power to block out gravity (though I guess an argument could be made that gravity manipulation could replicate most of Clark's powers to some degree, but that would probably go under "Superman's abilities are some variety of psychic power" rather than Clark having solar-system level strength/durability), so its gravitational force should have been completely unimpeded by Clark's hands if he wasn't doing something to the force field around it.

    Physically grabbing an released Black Hole to stop it is like throwing a sandwich at Galactus to stop him.
    Last edited by The Drunkard Kid; 07-13-2014 at 05:01 PM.

  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt the Manly View Post
    Supermans hand is glowing because he held a glowing black hole in his hand
    I didn't even get the first part. Dude held a black hole from breaking througj, something that would have destroyed the solar system . Even if he did it momentarily thats a huge feat
    ..... the comic shows straight up an energy bubble containing the black hole casting that light as its field and over everything inside it.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Alternatively, does Superman's hand normally glow orange?
    Hey, when you've been a Herald of Galactus, the severance package comes with a few perks.


  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    While we're there, so, direct question, how far beyond solar system busting do you figure post crisis Superman is? He contained a solar system destroying black hole in his hand with no help at all, after all.

  7. #22
    Mighty Member Minerboh's Avatar
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    Bills is a deity, a god, which means supernatural based powers.
    In other words, he would have eaten both Supermen for breakfast.

  8. #23
    Dweller in the West Primetime Harder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minerboh View Post
    Bills is a deity, a god, which means supernatural based powers.
    For the purposes of this fight, Bills' powers and ki do not count as magic. The Plot Gods rule it so, because otherwise it isn't as fun.
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  9. #24
    the devil's reject choptop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primetime Harder View Post
    For the purposes of this fight, Bills' powers and ki do not count as magic. The Plot Gods rule it so, because otherwise it isn't as fun.
    I don't think ki ever count's as magic.

  10. #25
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Its also completely nonsensical because A) the force it was leaking was shown to affect him through his durability just fine while he was running to it, and B) a Black Hole's damage is caused by gravity, and Clark's hands don't have the power to block out gravity (though I guess an argument could be made that gravity manipulation could replicate most of Clark's powers to some degree, but that would probably go under "Superman's abilities are some variety of psychic power" rather than Clark having solar-system level strength/durability), so its gravitational force should have been completely unimpeded by Clark's hands if he wasn't doing something to the force field around it.

    Physically grabbing an released Black Hole to stop it is like throwing a sandwich at Galactus to stop him.
    1: Agreed. Superman held the forcefield around the black hole, and even then it's kind of a weird feat of him grabbing it while it was going off and containing it again. Point being, he needed help and a GL to contain it.

    2: what kind of sandwich are we talking about here?
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  11. #26
    BANNED Matt the Manly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    I keep bringing it up because you keep ignoring it to talk about FTL, and presumably since he can on his own contain black holes powerful enough to wipe out solar systems, planet busting +++++ Superman.



    You know that was while they were preparing the beam for launch and firing it around the planet, right? You know the "sentences" you're talking about including Adam Strange saying how the beam itself isn't quite ready yet? You're basing your entire ignoring of this on something not even fully powered until.
    No I am basing my argument on the fact that Superman has at the very least, FTL travel speed and near light reflexes which means he could have easily pulled off the feat in the time it took Strange to talk about the 7 soldiers of victory, given that the guards could only specifically react at the speed of thought, which you are ignoring



    Oh, the comic with ftl Deadman. That's certainly one to cite for clean performances.
    Deadman wasn't affected by it because he is , yknow dead.



    I'm going to boil this down to where you seem to think you get to say this from. Can you find me some examples of the Silver Surfer being put into a race with lightspeed speedsters and only being able to keep up? The Surfer saying he can't go ftl? The race of being (which would have to be the Surfer's race to be accurate for this, Heralds are given power sets with several marked out differences in things from overall power to specific abilities) the Surfer is part of being presented as the speed peers of a guy who tops out at lightspeed under maximum strain?
    What has Silver Surfer got to do with this?

    Your "faster than light" examples contradict you wanting to go "I'm not saying he's as fast as the Flash!". If you think he can legit overcome planet freezing between nanoseconds time dilation, why exactly is he not jobbing when the Flash ridiculously outspeeds him?
    Because the ones who outsped him can literally travel through time. Travelling through time> overcoming time dilation

    Superman is repeatedly shown as being slower than, for instance, the Wally West Flash. The feats you talk about, if they didn't, say, contain things like Deadman also being able to ignore said time freeze, because apparently ghosts can just move within nanoseconds and "ignore time slowing", as far as maybe something funky going on there, would put him on that speed level instead. It would mean Wally has been jobbing Supes out for /years/. You can keep saying "consistent feats!" but it doesn't make that go away. Or that Superman gets put against ftl speedsters and marked out in his own words as being slower, or in the case of people well slower than Wally, as fast. These feats you talk about contradict and ignore that. They ignore the abilities of other characters and their performances. They ignore Superman's own setup. And it doesn't help that you're making this as part of an argument as far as talking about stronger than solar system busting Superman. It certainly makes your argument extremely familiar, but not per se helps it.
    So being slower than FTL Speedsters means you are slower than light?
    Wally West is clearly aster than Superman. I remember him superspeeding through a thousand scenarios in a nanosecond just as a direct contrast.
    The one time Superman failed to outspeed Jay Garrick shouldn't be used as evidence against the five other times he exceeded the speed of light

  12. #27
    BANNED Matt the Manly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    ..... the comic shows straight up an energy bubble containing the black hole casting that light as its field and over everything inside it.
    What energy bubble? Are you talking about that ring around the black hole after Superman contained it?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Its also completely nonsensical because A) the force it was leaking was shown to affect him through his durability just fine while he was running to it, and B) a Black Hole's damage is caused by gravity, and Clark's hands don't have the power to block out gravity (though I guess an argument could be made that gravity manipulation could replicate most of Clark's powers to some degree, but that would probably go under "Superman's abilities are some variety of psychic power" rather than Clark having solar-system level strength/durability), so its gravitational force should have been completely unimpeded by Clark's hands if he wasn't doing something to the force field around it.

    Physically grabbing an released Black Hole to stop it is like throwing a sandwich at Galactus to stop him.
    The force field around it certainly wasn't present while it was breaking free. Or before at any point. Or after. Only in that exact moment that Superman grabbed it.
    Also Superman specifically speaks about the gravitational force ripping apart his hands
    For the rest, comic book physics
    Last edited by Matt the Manly; 07-13-2014 at 06:30 PM.

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surtur View Post
    I guess people get moonbusting from the one feat where he rams into a "shadow moon" and KO's himself destroying it. Though he of course has held back the weight of the moon on his own and him and GL moved the planet so..not sure what type of "busting" that puts him at.



    NuSupes was lightspeed last I checked, and Bills isn't above that in anything other then travel speed that I recall. He also doesn't need to necessarily have "energy tanking" feats. We don't compartmentalize durability. He's shown he is durable enough to take hits from people on his strength level.
    He isn't. Can you name the multiple long list of light-speed feats he's accomplished? Then can you tell me why these one offs (literally) are more consistent than the dozens of times he's more akin to a fraction of light-speed levels? He needs energy feats on the same level when it's shown outright that the guy in the comic isn't shrugging off energy blast in the same way he's enduring haymakers.

    For Bills, some people would rate someone like SSJ3 Goku as near light...and bills can blitz him. But if bills is slower or only just as fast, than Superman wins scenario 1 pretty easily. Scenario 2 I don't know.

  15. #30
    Fantastic Member Bluekey's Avatar
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    Superman FTL is travel speed right? Whats his combat speed?

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