Superman vs Bills

[Pendaran]

Wally West is clearly aster than Superman. I remember him superspeeding through a thousand scenarios in a nanosecond just as a direct contrast.

Why is he clearly faster than Superman? Superman did everything he did in a fraction of a nanosecond in which the entire planet was frozen, heroes were assembled from all across Earth, and he had a prolonged conversation with Deadman. It wasn't just acting in a nanosecond or less, within a fraction of a nanosecond, time itself was suspended. Superman overcame that.

Deadman wasn't affected by it because he is , yknow dead.

So being dead means you can have extended conversations in the fraction of a nanosecond?

What has Silver Surfer got to do with this?

You started trying to advance all this when the argument against the Surfer's speed got shot down.

Because the ones who outsped him can literally travel through time. Travelling through time> overcoming time dilation

When it is zotting across the whole planet? Mmmnaaah.

The one time Superman failed to outspeed Jay Garrick shouldn't be used as evidence against the five other times he exceeded the speed of light

And all the other times Superman has only kept up with in fights or other speed performances people who are themselves only near light?

Jobbing presumably.

When Superman needed the help of two other speedsters to keep track across an entire planet of people who they already knew from where to look, jobbing, right? Should have been able to pull that **** off solo.

No I am basing my argument on the fact that Superman has at the very least, FTL travel speed and near light reflexes which means he could have easily pulled off the feat in the time it took Strange to talk about the 7 soldiers of victory, given that the guards could only specifically react at the speed of thought, which you are ignoring

You are basic your argument on ignoring that the comic itself notes Superman having to outrace light, rescue Adam's family, and get out, before the beam hit the ship. The reaction time of the guards is meaningless. If Superman could not grab them at ftl, when he attempted to do so /he would be slowing down/. He would have to grab them at the speeds he was going. For which the Flash sped him up.

[Pendaran]

What energy bubble? Are you talking about that ring around the black hole after Superman contained it?

... are you for real?

http://postimg.org/image/m66629159/

[The Drunkard Kid]

The force field around it certainly wasn't present while it was breaking free. Or before at any point. Or after. Only in that exact moment that Superman grabbed it.
Also Superman specifically speaks about the gravitational force ripping apart his hands
For the rest, comic book physics

If the field isn't the thing preventing gravity from working, then its sufficiently Comic Book Physics to be a meaningless feat, just like Superman's and Batman's ability to instantly regenerate themselves and their clothes after gravitational forces stretched and twisted them like spaghetti in that scan, or like how Clark and Billy managed to work together to lift infinite mass only for Alt-universe evil Clark to lift it by himself.

[Pendaran]

This being the same arc where Flash needed to speed lend Supes and Jonn to be faster than thought

No, this being the arc where no such thing happened.

You are again ignoring this comic based on things that have nothing to do with said comic.

http://postimg.org/image/w6eea5e6p/

Who in that scan does the Flash say he is speeding up? (if you're about to go on a thing about Wonder Woman and her being jobbed, that's Hippolyta, right there.)

[The Drunkard Kid]

... are you for real?

http://postimg.org/image/m66629159/

Which brings up another point: the black hole itself is the size of a speck of dust. Superman can't clasp both hands tightly around something that small (even discounting the fact that putting his hands against a black hole would be like trying to stop a sponge allegedly capable of instantly absorbing an ocean with a puddle of water the size of a human being).

The significantly larger (EDIT: machine and) glowing field of energy that explicitly contains said black hole's gravity, OTOH, is more reasonable.

[Pendaran]

Also, still no answer for if Superman is merely solar system busting strong, or beyond solar system busting strong? He held that black hole, which would have wasted a solar system after all, in all of his hand, with no help.

[Matt the Manly]

... are you for real?

http://postimg.org/image/m66629159/

Are you for real? The part a couple of pages later, where Superman's heat vision breaks the container and we actually see the force field shattering....that never happened right? The part where Superman notes its breaking free of the field? The part where Superman( and Batman) get distorted as the black hole breaks free? The part where Superman is complaining about the gravitational force straining his hands to breaking point and not the magnetic force field? The part where GL and Suped actually have to create a field because there isn't one?

[Dalak]

No, this being the arc where no such thing happened.

You are again ignoring this comic based on things that have nothing to do with said comic.

http://postimg.org/image/w6eea5e6p/

Who in that scan does the Flash say he is speeding up? (if you're about to go on a thing about Wonder Woman and her being jobbed, that's Hippolyta, right there.)

Just stepping in to say I always thought that was WW. Live and learn I guess.

[Matt the Manly]

No, this being the arc where no such thing happened.

You are again ignoring this comic based on things that have nothing to do with said comic.

http://postimg.org/image/w6eea5e6p/

Who in that scan does the Flash say he is speeding up? (if you're about to go on a thing about Wonder Woman and her being jobbed, that's Hippolyta, right there.)

.......Have you read the next issue where Flash gets extra punishment for speeding up the others?

[Pendaran]

Are you for real? The part a couple of pages later, where Superman's heat vision breaks the container and we actually see the force field shattering....that never happened right? The part where Superman notes its breaking free of the field? The part where Superman( and Batman) get distorted as the black hole breaks free? The part where Superman is complaining about the gravitational force straining his hands to breaking point and not the magnetic force field? The part where GL and Suped actually have to create a field because there isn't one?

So.. your entire argument at this point is even though the force field itself was noted as still extant but failing, where we see the glow of it around Superman's hand, and when we don't, GL is helping him, and Superman is never shown holding it unassisted. That we see the colouring of said force field, Superman all the same totally held it on his own.

[Pendaran]

.......Have you read the next issue where Flash gets extra punishment for speeding up the others?

So, the Flash says he's speeding up Wonder Woman and no one else, and Big Barda later commenting on his punishment for "speeding up the others" is more accurate than the Flash himself, saying what he is doing.

[Matt the Manly]

Why is he clearly faster than Superman? Superman did everything he did in a fraction of a nanosecond in which the entire planet was frozen, heroes were assembled from all across Earth, and he had a prolonged conversation with Deadman. It wasn't just acting in a nanosecond or less, within a fraction of a nanosecond, time itself was suspended. Superman overcame that.

Time was slowed down not stopped. This isn't the same thing as casually breaking through the time barrier like Wally West does



So being dead means you can have extended conversations in the fraction of a nanosecond?



You started trying to advance all this when the argument against the Surfer's speed got shot down.

When it is zotting across the whole planet? Mmmnaaah.

What difference does the size of area affected make? Its still only slowing down to nanoseconds. As I said Wally West has outhought several thousand scenarios in a nanosecond as a yardstick

And all the other times Superman has only kept up with in fights or other speed performances people who are themselves only near light?

Other than Jay Garrick, who are you talking about? The time he got serious he took Diana to the sun before she could react. Besides its always been " Martian Manhunter/ Billy Batson etc keeps up with Superman and have a couple of speed feats. Since Superman is near light, they must be near light. "
What if Superman himself was FTL?

Jobbing presumably.

When Superman needed the help of two other speedsters to keep track across an entire planet of people who they already knew from where to look, jobbing, right? Should have been able to pull that **** off solo.

So every time Wally West takes seconds instead of femtoseconds must be brought up now? Every middling sort of feat for people like Wally should be used to ignore the times they have reacted in nanoseconds? Because even Wally West has way more feats when he is just fast rather than insanely fast

You are basic your argument on ignoring that the comic itself notes Superman having to outrace light, rescue Adam's family, and get out, before the beam hit the ship. The reaction time of the guards is meaningless. If Superman could not grab them at ftl, when he attempted to do so /he would be slowing down/. He would have to grab them at the speeds he was going. For which the Flash sped him up.

So basically a comic which shows Superman being slower than thought is the issue ypu are going to cite for Superman being slower than light with the very plot requiring Superman to forget that even at the kind of middling speeds mentioned above ( by the same writer) , he could have finished the story two pages earlier

Basically Plot Induced Stupidity

[Matt the Manly]

So, the Flash says he's speeding up Wonder Woman and no one else, and Big Barda later commenting on his punishment for "speeding up the others" is more accurate than the Flash himself, saying what he is doing.

Wow Superman is in chains the last time we see him, then he isnt. You are now going to say he did it under his owm speed as opposed to the writer specifically referring to Flash speeding up the others off panel. So now you are assuming they sped up on their own despite the writer directly contradicting that later

[Pendaran]

So every time Wally West takes seconds instead of femtoseconds must be brought up now? Every middling sort of feat for people like Wally should be used to ignore the times they have reacted in nanoseconds? Because even Wally West has way more feats when he is just fast rather than insanely fast

So, Superman isn't as fast as Wally West, but he's your standard for explaining why we're jobbing him out, even though ftl speedsters are shown being faster than he, light and near light speedsters are shown being in his peer group over and over, he himself notes he can't go ftl, one of your "feats" involves ftl ghosts..

Time was suspended, not stopped. This isn't the same thing as casually breaking through the time barrier like Wally West does

So now your recourse is semantics. Time was "suspended" to the point that the ring could, while they were in mid sentence no less, energy beam at multiple successor candidates from across the planet. By the way, if Superman was legitimately so fast in this comic, how did he not notice or avoid the green energy beam coming for him? Now, an answer to that could be this was some whole funky thing for Hal Jordan to sort out if he wanted to give up and die or not, or that this is not a clean performance, but that would be easier. And also not have to get into why ghosts are ftl.

The time he got serious he took Diana to the sun before she could react.

A fight that he ultimately lost to Wonder Woman despite "going serious" and had many things going wrong with it, and trucked in Superman overpowering her as much as anything for such as he did, is an interesting example to try and cite for anything.

But that aside, Black Adam, Billy Batson, Martian Manhunter, various post crisis kryptonians (who I guess are all also now ftl despite a general marked deficiency in this area)..

What if Superman himself was FTL?

Based on anything you've brought up so far? Seems like a moot question.

Still, while we're there. Solar System busting or solar system busting+ how strong is Superman?

[Matt the Manly]

So.. your entire argument at this point is even though the force field itself was noted as still extant but failing, where we see the glow of it around Superman's hand, and when we don't, GL is helping him, and Superman is never shown holding it unassisted. That we see the colouring of said force field, Superman all the same totally held it on his own.

Few points
1. Please check the page where Superman HVs the field. Is the fields container shattering or not?
2. Is the field specifically noted to be magnetic or not, and then what is the force superman complains about later?
3. Did Superman and GL need to create an electromagnetic field, yes or no, because of the absence of one?
4. Where was the field when the black hole broke free and warped Superman etc? Are you now going to claim you saw a field enveloping them all?
5. Even assuming the field was there, are Supermans hands inside a field that is suppoded to contain a black hole , yes or no? Is the field containing supermans hands or are the hands containing the field?

6 . At this point , Are you or are you not looking for increasingly far fetched theories about a relatively simple feat?