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  1. #46
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    While we're there, this didn't get answered either:


    You started trying to advance all this when the argument against the Surfer's speed got shot down.
    That's what this had to do with the Surfer. So, what the timing, despite being within those threads, was random coincidence?

  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt the Manly View Post
    Few points
    1. Please check the page where Superman HVs the field. Is the fields container shattering or not?
    2. Is the field specifically noted to be magnetic or not, and then what is the force superman complains about later?
    3. Did Superman and GL need to create an electromagnetic field, yes or no, because of the absence of one?
    4. Where was the field when the black hole broke free and warped Superman etc? Are you now going to claim you saw a field enveloping them all?
    5. Even assuming the field was there, are Supermans hands inside a field that is suppoded to contain a black hole , yes or no? Is the field containing supermans hands or are the hands containing the field?

    6 . At this point , Are you or are you not looking for increasingly far fetched theories about a relatively simple feat?
    So, again, to confirm, you are ignoring the nature of the field shown, the glow around Superman's hands, the actual scans posted to you, and that the very next page, again, posted to you, after Superman grabbing it, is GL helping him hold it. There is no intervening period where he holds it on his own. These questions require basically having to claim some other kind of comic happened. You are basically saying that despite the field being there, Superman held it unassisted. That would be impossible, for the field being there.

    I will just hit this one:

    4. Where was the field when the black hole broke free and warped Superman etc? Are you now going to claim you saw a field enveloping them all?
    ... so, Superman himself says he got it before it could fully release, right in the scan, yet you keep saying it broke free. This requires ignoring the actual scan. If the field was not hindering it in any way, and this is a "solar system destroying black hole", if it actually broke free, why are anyone in the JLA besides Superman, since obviously he can tank solar system busting force, still alive? It broke free. You keep saying it broke free. There's even, as you admit, a panel of people being warped, showing Superman thus not getting to it before it "Broke free". Why is there still a solar system?

    (unless, like Superman himself said, he got to it before it could fully release, which meant, by simple logic, it was still in part being held back. Which would mean there was a field still holding it back to some degree. Which we see the glow of. Which means Superman himself never held it unassisted by some force).

    edit: I will put this as simply as it can be put. What is on the very next page after Superman grabbing the black hole. You don't even have to check the comic. The page was posted right in this thread.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 07-13-2014 at 07:49 PM.

  3. #48
    BANNED Matt the Manly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    So, Superman isn't as fast as Wally West, but he's your standard for explaining why we're jobbing him out, even though ftl speedsters are shown being faster than he, light and near light speedsters are shown being in his peer group over and over, he himself notes he can't go ftl, one of your "feats" involves ftl ghosts..
    On other occasions he claims to be able to move in femtoseconds if you are going by character claims
    Superman is a general standard for speed in DC, yes. People like Black Adam have hardly any speed feats outside fights, ignoring the one time he (failed to) kept up with Jay Garrick

    So tell me how does this work out. Black Adam has to bust a gut to keep up with Jay Garrick but casually intercepts Supermans punches. What does that do to your theory about Supermans speed being equal to Jay Garricks being equal to Black Adams?

    Certainly going strictly by feats , Adam is hardly as fast as Jay , but people elevate him to that level simply because of how be performed vs Supes and Captain Marvel who again is judged mainly by how evenly matched he is vs Superman


    So now your recourse is semantics. Time was "suspended" to the point that the ring could, while they were in mid sentence no less, energy beam at multiple successor candidates from across the planet. By the way, if Superman was legitimately so fast in this comic, how did he not notice or avoid the green energy beam coming for him? Now, an answer to that could be this was some whole funky thing for Hal Jordan to sort out if he wanted to give up and die or not, or that this is not a clean performance, but that would be easier. And also not have to get into why ghosts are ftl.
    Deadman isn't FTL The time dilation just didn't affect him cause hes dead



    A fight that he ultimately lost to Wonder Woman despite "going serious" and had many things going wrong with it, and trucked in Superman overpowering her as much as anything for such as he did, is an interesting example to try and cite for anything.

    But that aside, Black Adam, Billy Batson, Martian Manhunter, various post crisis kryptonians (who I guess are all also now ftl despite a general marked deficiency in this area)..
    Sure, why not.


    Based on anything you've brought up so far? Seems like a moot question.
    There are several other feats

    Still, while we're there. Solar System busting or solar system busting+ how strong is Superman?
    Definitely above planet busting
    Last edited by Matt the Manly; 07-13-2014 at 08:07 PM.

  4. #49
    BANNED Matt the Manly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    So, again, to confirm, you are ignoring the nature of the field shown, the glow around Superman's hands, the actual scans posted to you, and that the very next page, again, posted to you, after Superman grabbing it, is GL helping him hold it. There is no intervening period where he holds it on his own. These questions require basically having to claim some other kind of comic happened. You are basically saying that despite the field being there, Superman held it unassisted. That would be impossible, for the field being there.
    Thats a whole bunch of questions you ignored there

    I will just hit this one:
    By all means. Pick and choose your answers



    ... so, Superman himself says he got it before it could fully release, right in the scan, yet you keep saying it broke free. This requires ignoring the actual scan. If the field was not hindering it in any way, and this is a "solar system destroying black hole", if it actually broke free, why are anyone in the JLA besides Superman, since obviously he can tank solar system busting force, still alive? It broke free. You keep saying it broke free. There's even, as you admit, a panel of people being warped, showing Superman thus not getting to it before it "Broke free". Why is there still a solar system?

    (unless, like Superman himself said, he got to it before it could fully release, which meant, by simple logic, it was still in part being held back. Which would mean there was a field still holding it back to some degree. Which we see the glow of. Which means Superman himself never held it unassisted by some force).

    edit: I will put this as simply as it can be put. What is on the very next page after Superman grabbing the black hole. You don't even have to check the comic. The page was posted right in this thread.
    Again with " there must be a field holding it back" despite the field being shown as shattering, despite GL amd Supes having to make a new one, despite there being no field to contain it as it was released

    And as for why the solar system didn't explode. Simple. Superman reacted in time. There is no need to go looking for fields that arent there, when the simplest explanation is that Superman reacted quick enough to stop it from expanding

  5. #50
    Truth and Conviction Hazard's Avatar
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    Four hours ago:

    "Huh, a Superman vs Bills thread. Well, that could get long."

    Now:

    My psychic powers are obviously unrivaled in the galaxy.

    Like Guldo only cool.

    Anyway, Bills wins. He's too tough and his energy projection is stronger.
    Last edited by Hazard; 07-13-2014 at 08:02 PM.
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  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    On other occasions he claims to be able to move in femtoseconds if you are going by character claims
    Superman is a general standard for speed in DC, yes. People like Black Adam have hardly any speed feats outside fights, ignoring the one time he (failed to) kept up with Jay Garrick
    Black Adam kept up with Jay Garrick in a fight where they were outright and explicitly using superspeed on each other. Black Adam kept up with Jay Garrick, running right behind him as Jay noted he was approaching the speed of light, until the time to take his speed away came.

    So tell me how does this work out. Black Adam has to bust a gut to keep up with Jay Garrick but casually intercepts Supermans punches. What does that do to your theory about Supermans speed being equal to Jay Garricks being equal to Black Adams?
    Black Adam sure looks like he's busting a gut here, in this run where he is voluntarily giving his speed to Jay.

    http://postimg.org/image/4rcaj5avn/


    This is Black Adam, deranged/controlled by Theo Adam and with a brain tumor, keeping up with Jay without busting a gut, both explicitly using superspeed to fight each other, not even that whole "keep up with".

    http://postimg.org/image/qsaa2g8d3/

    Now, being fair, on the next page, Jay manages to get in one of those whirling blitzes, but being even more fair, Adam is noted as being weakened in this comic. All the same, no busting a gut.

    Deadman isn't FTL The time dilation just didn't affect him cause hes dead

    Also, you quoted all this stuff without actually answering it:

    A fight that he ultimately lost to Wonder Woman despite "going serious" and had many things going wrong with it, and trucked in Superman overpowering her as much as anything for such as he did, is an interesting example to try and cite for anything.

    But that aside, Black Adam, Billy Batson, Martian Manhunter, various post crisis kryptonians (who I guess are all also now ftl despite a general marked deficiency in this area)..



    Based on anything you've brought up so far? Seems like a moot question.

    Still, while we're there. Solar System busting or solar system busting+ how strong is Superman
    So, ghosts can act in the fraction of a nanosecond?
    Last edited by Pendaran; 07-13-2014 at 08:17 PM.

  7. #52
    Super Moderator The Watcher's Avatar
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    Matt The Manly, if you're going to twist and ignore evidence presented in scans you can stop posting on this thread. And be notified any future posts of yours in threads involving Superman will be scrutinized for similar tendencies that if exhibited will result in appropriate restrictions.

  8. #53
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    edit: nm, t'wouldn't be fair.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 07-13-2014 at 08:14 PM.

  9. #54
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    I'm curious... how can someones reactions/reflexes be slower than their travel speed?

    I mean for example, if someone has FTL travel speed, how can they not have FTL reactions? They wouldn't be able to steer or direct where they are flying/running. They be crashing into planets etc.

    It's like a Formula 1 driver. If their reactions/reflexes don't match up to how fast they are travelling in the car... they are gonna end up as a smear along the side of the track.

  10. #55
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Would you say Thor is the fastest character in comics then?

  11. #56
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    No. His travel speed isn't anywhere near the likes of Flash or Silver Surfer or Gladiator. But his reactions should match up to his travel speed, whatever it is. Unless he teleports.

    I know we are talking "comic book logic" but it just doesn't make sense to the internal logic of the comics for a character who can fly hypersonic or FTL to not have hypersonic or FTL reactions. They'd be flying into mountains or planets or stars or black holes and wouldn't have the reactions to do anything about it.
    Last edited by endless; 07-14-2014 at 07:12 AM.

  12. #57
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by endless View Post
    No. His travel speed isn't anywhere near the likes of Flash or Silver Surfer or Gladiator. But his reactions should match up to his travel speed, whatever it is. Unless he teleports.

    I know we are talking "comic book logic" but it just doesn't make sense to the internal logic of the comics for a character who can fly hypersonic or FTL to not have hypersonic or FTL reactions. They'd be flying into mountains or planets or stars or black holes and wouldn't have the reactions to do anything about it.
    Thor has crossed galactic distances or greater at crazy speeds just fine, why isn't he at least on that level? You want to present yourself as making a general argument, why not be consistent with it?

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Thor has crossed galactic distances or greater at crazy speeds just fine, why isn't he at least on that level? You want to present yourself as making a general argument, why not be consistent with it?
    Well if he has done so consistently without using Mjolnir for teleportation, then yea, he should have reflexes/reactions to match up to those speeds. Otherwise like i said, he wouldn't be able to be in control of where he is going.

  14. #59
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by endless View Post
    Well if he has done so consistently without using Mjolnir for teleportation, then yea, he should have reflexes/reactions to match up to those speeds. Otherwise like i said, he wouldn't be able to be in control of where he is going.
    So, as fast as the Flash by those standards then, or faster?

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    So, as fast as the Flash by those standards then, or faster?
    He's never shown the ability to outrun death or time travel via speed has he?

    Either way, all i'm saying is a characters reaction speed should match up with their travel speed.

    I've seen things mentioned on boards where people are like "He can travel FTL, but he only has supersonic reflexes". Well sorry, but how the hell does that work? That's the dumbest thing i've ever heard.

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