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  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    He's never shown the ability to outrun death or time travel via speed has he?
    If all Thor needs are travel time feats in what would have to be ridiculous insane multiples of ftl, which he has, to have reflexes of ridiculous insane multiples of ftl, why would those make the Flash faster? Is Thor at least as fast as Superman, in this argument that is a general complaint about these things?

    Either way, all i'm saying is a characters reaction speed should match up with their travel speed.

    I've seen things mentioned on boards where people are like "He can travel FTL, but he only has supersonic reflexes". Well sorry, but how the hell does that work? That's the dumbest thing i've ever heard.
    And yet, this sort of thing is particularly why it was one of the mod rulings to carry over post board reset. Because Thor, for instance, has /maybe/ in his entire career one or, being generous, two clean feats that could be called ftl reaction time. Everything else, him zipping across galaxies or greater or catching up to people flying at insane multiples of ftl in space or whatever, are those.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 07-14-2014 at 07:40 AM.

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by endless View Post
    He's never shown the ability to outrun death or time travel via speed has he?

    Either way, all i'm saying is a characters reaction speed should match up with their travel speed.

    I've seen things mentioned on boards where people are like "He can travel FTL, but he only has supersonic reflexes". Well sorry, but how the hell does that work? That's the dumbest thing i've ever heard.
    If you want an actual real world logic explanation, it is that space is really, really big. The odds of actually running into something aren't that high. Even going through something like the asteroid belt your odds of hitting something are literally one in a billion. When you factor in that many of these space faring characters have some degree of hyper senses or cosmic awareness to help them plot a route, a lack of impacts is hardly surprising.

    Beyond that, comics clearly don't treat travel time in space as equivalent to reaction time. Lobo, who Superman has called a "super speed punching bag" flies around at FTL speeds by manual control. There was a recent comic where Hal Jordan lost his ring, grabbed himself a FTL space ship, and had it's entire navigation system set to prioritize flying to Oa on the fastest possible route, which meant it wasn't going to bother avoiding planets and suns and stuff. Hal said that he then had to manually steer around planets and suns. Hal Jordan? Does not have faster than light reflexes.

    There are a ton of examples that fall in to these areas. Even guys like Superman and Sentry have "feats" that showcase the difference. Those two have grabbed dudes and dragged them to the sun while monologuing. If their reaction time was on par with the speed they were traveling, they would have had time for the Gettysburg address and then some, as opposed to a couple sentences.

    Travel speed IS occasionally useful as a reflex feat-- some good indicators include when it is happening in a crowded area on a planet or happening on foot. Nova has some decent stuff along those lines, as does Bizarro. But space is biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig.
    Last edited by Captain Morgan; 07-14-2014 at 08:17 AM.

  3. #63
    Mighty Member abmccray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by endless View Post
    I'm curious... how can someones reactions/reflexes be slower than their travel speed?

    I mean for example, if someone has FTL travel speed, how can they not have FTL reactions? They wouldn't be able to steer or direct where they are flying/running. They be crashing into planets etc.

    It's like a Formula 1 driver. If their reactions/reflexes don't match up to how fast they are travelling in the car... they are gonna end up as a smear along the side of the track.
    A Formula 1 driver does NOT react as quickly as the car's travel speed.

    You're missing two curves here. I'll explain below:

    1) Start up time and slow down time. Travel speed doesn't mean you travel at that exact speed from the beginning of your travel to the end of it. There is normally a relatively slow start, and then a relatively slow end to it, with most of the travel happening at the higher speed. My car takes ~5 seconds to accelerate to 60MPH and needs a certain amount of room to brake down. It's not instant, and you'd constantly be controlling that speed, depending on what's coming up as well.

    As an example, we'll use Superman. in his "turn back time" feat in Superman 1, he BUILT UP that speed. Yes, he started incredibly fast because movie Superman has ridiculous reaction speed as well (changing clothes quickly, etc.), but it was nowhere near the speed he ended at.

    2) Distance. Race drivers don't react to things that have immediately appeared right in front of heir face at those speeds, they're making judgments based on distance and planning. When planes are flying, if a building appeared 5 feet in front of them out of nowhere, they couldn't avoid it. What happens is, they see things miles, etc. away and judge based on that.

    So it's a mix of speed curves and distance as to why travel speed is completely different from movement/reaction speed.

  4. #64
    Mighty Member abmccray's Avatar
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    Also, in the old board, once Post Crisis Superman was lowered to moon-busting area, people generally said that SSJ1, 2, or 3 Goku would be a good match for him, depending on where those people ranked his speed.

    People like Super Buu, Gotenks, and especially Gohan would blitz-stomp SSJ3 Goku.

    This is what Bills does to SSJ3 Goku:


  5. #65
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    As far as speed, I will opine that the Spectre has one of the greatest travel feats. He caught up to Supes when Kal was trying to catch Kara who was out of control and threatening reality with her speed.
    He also casually ignored Supes speed attempt to get around him. Also, he detached his fist and sent it to circle the entire universe to punch a bad guy in the back of the head in real fight time.

  6. #66
    World's Greatest UltraMagnetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    The field around it had not yet fully collapsed, he was grabbing it through it, that's the glow right there. He then only ever held it with green lantern's help afterwards, what you are saying is not what happened. You are the sort of person for why this scene required to be mod ruled again and again on the old board.

    Alternatively, does Superman's hand normally glow orange?
    This doesn't follow what's taking place in the scan provided. Superman states that Mnemon is leaving the force field and when he grabs it he says he got it before it fully escapes. So how can he grab it through the forcefield when according to Superman, Mnemon is pretty much outside of the field already?

    Mnemon was releasing the memories he stole throughout the galaxy before he started to emerge from the field. The memories were in the form of golden energy. Hence Superman's glowing hand.
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  7. #67
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UltraMagnetic View Post
    This doesn't follow what's taking place in the scan provided. Superman states that Mnemon is leaving the force field and when he grabs it he says he got it before it fully escapes. So how can he grab it through the forcefield when according to Superman, Mnemon is pretty much outside of the field already?

    Mnemon was releasing the memories he stole throughout the galaxy before he started to emerge from the field. The memories were in the form of golden energy. Hence Superman's glowing hand.
    Why is there still a solar system. If the black hole broke free, why did anyone in that room, and the room, not die? If Mnemon, and presumably the black hole along with him/that he is or you're now arguing for something that is completely meaningless, is "pretty much" outside the field, why is there still a solar system? If he and said black hole got free and nothing like, say, a force field was providing any restraint, why is there not massive gaps where a solar system should be? Or at least a giant void where that room should be? Superman says he got it before it "fully released", if it hadn't fully released, what does that mean it would have to still be emerging from?

    Question for you regardless, Superman then, with no help at all as far as the argument you are trying to make, held back in his hand a black hole stated to be capable of wasting the solar system. How far beyond solar system busting force are you arguing Superman is? Just slightly beyond? At roughly that level?

    Mnemon was releasing the memories he stole throughout the galaxy before he started to emerge from the field. The memories were in the form of golden energy. Hence Superman's glowing hand.
    We also see that the field itself is the same golden energy, right in scans provided, and I don't know why, but I'm comfortable with going with that instead of now arguing Superman can grapple thought itself, and also solar system busting force. Because we also see that when Green Lantern is on the next page helping him, as shown, the light has gone out, as though a collapsing field collapsed, and for another panel after that on the page after. We certainly see some memory glow crap on the page /right after/ that scan in that sequence when the Mnemon was attacking Superman's mind with bad memories, but of course, to remind again, by that point, Green Lantern was helping him contain the black hole. Which is to say, as once again noted we go from Superman containing a black hole that has not managed to fully emerge from a faltering containment field, to the very next page of Green Lantern helping him do it, to right until the end of them creating a new magnetic field, Green Lantern helping him do it. When in that sequence would you like to argue the black hole ever fully escaped for Superman to hold it on its own?

    Alternatively, if Superman is now instead restraining golden memory energies and not a black hole, in what way is this entire performance now not completely meaningless?

    In fact, you want to say "Superman is now holding back memories" and talk about how the golden glow is the memory energy and not.. all the other energies of this thing that have the same glow. When Mnemon is releasing memories at him, the energies of such outright blaze past Superman's hand, and Superman himself explicitly notes memories being released at him, as though Mnemon is actively willing it so to make it happen past his initial loss of the JLA's memories. For some reason, despite "holding memories back" in panels before this, he feels and sees nothing from them.

    Man, I really dislike the only X scans from a comic per thread limit sometimes.

    Because while we're really all there, if this black hole that was going to release was so devastating, why did the Mnemon's physical containment unit itself survive? We see it floating inside that wormhole it was sealed in right on the very last page of that comic after it "blew", largely intact, if not outright in another sector of space. You'd think this thing, if at the very least it could kill a solar system, and the entire plan was for it to blow up and thereby seal itself into the wormhole it was being tossed into, would not leave its entire containment unit afterwards to float along with. Was it just that insanely durable? The field they created was only meant to hold long enough for them to toss it into the wormhole, where by their own plans, it would then kersplode. Why is the containment unit left after that?

    Everything about this performance you'd think would make it so questionable that claiming it demonstrates anything valid would be extremely dubious, and yet, here we are, because some people really need FTL planet busting++++++ Superman, no matter how useless a showing is for that.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 07-14-2014 at 05:13 PM.

  8. #68
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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    Having reviewed the thread and the black hole feat, I'd say it's just not that good. It's a weird one and I don't see Superman containing a black hole capable of destroying the solar system. Also note that when it did get free, Batman was right there and he wasn't affected.
    So, I'm going to go ahead and say this whole holding a black hole in his hands feat shouldn't really be taken into consideration for Superman's feats and at the very least be declared SMvsFL.
    Thus, we will end discussion on that and get back to the fight.
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  9. #69
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    edit: nm, t'wouldn't be fair.
    Was never fair to begin with. When someone says Post Crisis Superman is FTL in reaction time, they generally do not stand a chance in a debate involving him.

    Thread: Bills is far superior to Post Crisis Supes in every way. It isn't even fair. An SSJ2 outclasses the poor guy, Bills is just something else all together.

    I'd rank Nu Supes at around SSJ3 level. Not as fast in reaction time(he is either slightly below light as minimum or slightly above light at most) but a bit more durable and stronger. Plus superior endurance. Still gets manhandled by Bills as he is still a lot slower, and most likely not as strong or durable. That and well, we all know how SSJ3 level guys do against Bills as you can see in the scan posted previously.

    Bills can more or less take both of these Supermen at the same time and win quite casually tbh. Guy casually knocked out Buu(near SSJ3 level) and Gohan(a fuck ton stronger than an SSJ3) at the same time. It be more or less very reminiscent of that.
    Last edited by Cody; 07-15-2014 at 07:08 AM.

  10. #70
    Mighty Member Slade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    Was never fair to begin with. When someone says Post Crisis Superman is FTL in reaction time, they generally do not stand a chance in a debate involving him.

    Thread: Bills is far superior to Post Crisis Supes in every way. It isn't even fair. An SSJ2 outclasses the poor guy, Bills is just something else all together.

    I'd rank Nu Supes at around SSJ3 level. Not as fast in reaction time(he is either slightly below light as minimum or slightly above light at most) but a bit more durable and stronger. Plus superior endurance. Still gets manhandled by Bills as he is still a lot slower, and most likely not as strong or durable. That and well, we all know how SSJ3 level guys do against Bills as you can see in the scan posted previously.

    Bills can more or less take both of these Supermen at the same time and win quite casually tbh. Guy casually knocked out Buu(near SSJ3 level) and Gohan(a fuck ton stronger than an SSJ3) at the same time. It be more or less very reminiscent of that.
    Would Pre Crisis Superman or Superman 1 Million be more of a challenge for him?

  11. #71
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade1 View Post
    Would Pre Crisis Superman or Superman 1 Million be more of a challenge for him?
    Pre Crisis Superman would stomp everything in the Dragonball franchise quite easily. You'd have to like, have a stacked composite Dragonball guy(with all the canon, filler, and movie feats) in order to actually have a DB being that could even hurt or kill PC Supes. And even then, said being would be almost like a statue to PC Supes that they would be paste before they could do anything.

    Other than that? No singular being in the DB franchise has a chance against PC Supes.

    Superman 1 million? He is physically stronger than PC Superman and has a "force vision" that can hold a galaxy back. So he could wreck anything in the DB franchise with a single punch or hit from that force vision of his. With that being said, he would be utterly stomped by ssj2+ due to having no half decent reaction feats, and no half decent durability feats. With his showings his durability and speed would be around post crisis Superman's level. Which means he would be blitzed up the whazoo by SSJ2+.

  12. #72
    Pro Mutant Anarchist's Avatar
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    Wat.
    Thats the first time I've heard people say that an SSJ2 can *blitz* Post Crisis-Supes.
    I remember people arguing wheter an SSJ3 would be an even opponent for him.

    Based on what do SSJ2's outspeed DC bricks?
    Last edited by Anarchist; 07-15-2014 at 08:05 AM.

  13. #73
    Mighty Member abmccray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchist View Post
    Wat.
    Thats the first time I've heard people say that an SSJ2 can *blitz* Post Crisis-Supes.
    I remember people arguing wheter an SSJ3 would be an even opponent for him.

    Based on what do SSJ2's outspeed DC bricks?
    - If you scale using reactions to all out blasts, they get to around just under light at SSJ1-ish.
    - If you scale using feated power jumps and subsequent speed blitzes on lesser characters, they get there at around late Saiyan Saga

    SSJ2's can wtf blitz Ascended SSJ1 level characters. Anyone that uses either of those methods to gauge DBZ speeds would, therefore, say that.

    I've never really heard the logic for spotting SSJ3s that speed and not lower outside of a general "that's where I feel comfortable." SSJ3 Goku doesn't really have any gigantic feats above an SSJ2, outside of doing better against Buu (and not as dramatically better as a Gotenks or Gohan, at that). Buu wasn't really much faster than a SSJ2; enough to outfight them, but not blitz - seemed like a 25% or so speed difference as opposed to doubling or something.

  14. #74
    Mighty Member Slade1's Avatar
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    I always thought no DB characters were FTL, not even light speed really. Have things changed or was I always misinformed?

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade1 View Post
    I always thought no DB characters were FTL, not even light speed really. Have things changed or was I always misinformed?
    The latter mate.

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