Superman vs Bills

[Surtur]

Was never fair to begin with. When someone says Post Crisis Superman is FTL in reaction time, they generally do not stand a chance in a debate involving him.

Thread: Bills is far superior to Post Crisis Supes in every way. It isn't even fair. An SSJ2 outclasses the poor guy, Bills is just something else all together.

I'd rank Nu Supes at around SSJ3 level. Not as fast in reaction time(he is either slightly below light as minimum or slightly above light at most) but a bit more durable and stronger. Plus superior endurance. Still gets manhandled by Bills as he is still a lot slower, and most likely not as strong or durable. That and well, we all know how SSJ3 level guys do against Bills as you can see in the scan posted previously.

Bills can more or less take both of these Supermen at the same time and win quite casually tbh. Guy casually knocked out Buu(near SSJ3 level) and Gohan(a **** ton stronger than an SSJ3) at the same time. It be more or less very reminiscent of that.

NuSupes isn't SSJ3, Post Crisis is. NuSupes is even stronger then post crisis, so I'm not sure where you get the "Nu Supes is SSJ3 level". Bills also didn't show superior speed, not sure where this happened. Also said he wasn't as strong, but he benches the weight of the planet for days. His flying through planets doesn't make him stronger.

Wat.
Thats the first time I've heard people say that an SSJ2 can *blitz* Post Crisis-Supes.
I remember people arguing wheter an SSJ3 would be an even opponent for him.

Based on what do SSJ2's outspeed DC bricks?

Don't worry, stick around long enough you will see people say a variety of silly things about Superman and DBZ. My favorite was "Raditz can beat Superman". I had a mighty chuckle at that. I hoped and prayed maybe they meant JLU Supes, but they did not It's just not going to happen, and it should tell you something that most of the arguments for it boil down to "oh, power scaling and stuff". This is the same as claiming they are lightspeeders by the Frieza saga. Which, with the vaunted power scaling, means they would be massively FTL by the end of the series, which is all kinds of hilariously wrong.

[Cody]

NuSupes isn't SSJ3, Post Crisis is. NuSupes is even stronger then post crisis, so I'm not sure where you get the "Nu Supes is SSJ3 level". Bills also didn't show superior speed, not sure where this happened. Also said he wasn't as strong, but he benches the weight of the planet for days. His flying through planets doesn't make him stronger.

Yea, no. Post Crisis is nowhere near ssj3 level. Apart from being only a fraction of the speed of light, a planet busting attack messes him up pretty bad. His strength isn't even capable of busting a planet. Uninhabitable? Sure. But that is it. How you figure he is anywhere near ssj3 level is beyond me.

Nu Supes is still slower than an ssj3 but like SSJ3 Goku, can punch wreck planets just by punching them. And can take hits from guys stronger than him(H'el) and keep on trucking.

Post Crisis is nowhere near that level. And the reason Bills is above Nu Superman is due to the fact that he is overall superior to SSJ3 Goku in everyway. Nu Supes is physically stronger than ssj3 Goku by a bit, but so is Bills. And yes, him casually shattering planets while flying through them should tell you something about his strength, and durability. If Nu Supes tried something on that scale he would not be as fine afterwards.

Seriously, how can you figure post crisis, a guy who is wrecked by planet busting attacks, only a fraction of the speed of light, and has a physical strength level that is only at moon shattering levels, is anywhere near ssj3 level of power?

Don't worry, SSJ1's nor SSJ2's will be blitzing post crisis Superman. It's just not going to happen, and it should tell you something that most of the arguments for it boil down to "oh, power scaling and stuff". This is the same as claiming they are lightspeeders by the Frieza saga. Which, with the vaunted power scaling, means they would be massively FTL by the end of the series, which is all kinds of hilariously wrong.

SSj1 can't, but ssj2 absolutely can. And yes, they could absolutely be MFTL by the end of the series. Or at the very least, FTL. You saying it is "hilariously wrong" and leaving it at that, doesn't really defend your argument.

I should clarify that, though end series DBZ fighters are MFTL, they are nowhere near Gladiator, Wally, etc level of "MFTL". Just so that it isn't brought up. And even then I'd say only SSG and Bills are around "MFTL" level of speed.

[Slade1]

And yes, him casually shattering planets while flying through them should tell you something about his strength, and durability. If Nu Supes tried something on that scale he would not be as fine afterwards.

Why not? He bench pressed the weight of the world for 5 days straight without sunlight. I don't think it's a stretch to say he would do just fine.

[Cody]

Why not? He bench pressed the weight of the world for 5 days straight without sunlight. I don't think it's a stretch to say he would do just fine.

Bench pressing the weight of the earth is one thing, smashing face first into several planets almost instantly at an interstellar speed is something else. I mean he can shatter planets with pure strength sure, but smashing face first into planets? One after the other? That is going to leave him a bit woozy. I mean he won't be dead or anything but it isn't something he can casually walk away from.

The guy can most likely take a multi planet bust on a lower scale and be alive afterwards. He would be pretty hurt, but otherwise he would be fine.

Side Note: Post Crisis Superman can take a planet busting attack, he would be hurt, but otherwise just fine. A multi planet busting attack, even on a lower scale, would **** him up something fierce and would most likely end him.

[Slade1]

Bench pressing the weight of the earth is one thing, smashing face first into several planets almost instantly at an interstellar speed is something else. I mean he can shatter planets with pure strength sure, but smashing face first into planets? One after the other? That is going to leave him a bit woozy. I mean he won't be dead or anything but it isn't something he can casually walk away from.

The guy can most likely take a multi planet bust on a lower scale and be alive afterwards. He would be pretty hurt, but otherwise he would be fine.

Side Note: Post Crisis Superman can take a planet busting attack, he would be hurt, but otherwise just fine. A multi planet busting attack, even on a lower scale, would **** him up something fierce and would most likely end him.

Fair enough.

[Hazard]

Why not? He bench pressed the weight of the world for 5 days straight without sunlight. I don't think it's a stretch to say he would do just fine.

Only touching this, but it takes a lot of power to destroy a planet. If you dropped the Earth in the middle of the sun, it'd take a long time took cook it contrary to what many movies would have you believe. The planet is actually pretty tough.

As the scan of that famous feat even points out, the Earth's "weight" is a bit more complicated than that. It's more accurate to say Supes lifted Earth's mass.

You want to blow up a planet you first need to overcome not only its toughness, but also the gravity that holds the whole thing together, and even further down the line is Death Star style destruction.

[Slade1]

Only touching this, but it takes a lot of power to destroy a planet. If you dropped the Earth in the middle of the sun, it'd take a long time took cook it contrary to what many movies would have you believe. The planet is actually pretty tough.

As the scan of that famous feat even points out, the Earth's "weight" is a bit more complicated than that. It's more accurate to say Supes lifted Earth's mass.

You want to blow up a planet you first need to overcome not only its toughness, but also the gravity that holds the whole thing together, and even further down the line is Death Star style destruction.

See my above post but in regards to the gravity thing, you can take apart chunks of a planet away from it and the gravity would weaken little by little. As mass is directly proportional to gravity, the lower the mass the lower the gravity. It doesn't have any bearing on this fight but just wanted to throw that out there.

[Anarchist]

And yes, they could absolutely be MFTL by the end of the series. Or at the very least, FTL. You saying it is "hilariously wrong" based on..just because? Doesn't really help your argument.

So how does the sudden *DBZ fighters at the end are easily massively faster than light* fit with *Movie characters are much more powerful and faster than manga characters, even a Non-canon SSJ1 is massively more powerful than a canon SSJ3*?

[Hazard]

See my above post but in regards to the gravity thing, you can take apart chunks of a planet away from it and the gravity would weaken little by little. As mass is directly proportional to gravity, the lower the mass the lower the gravity. It doesn't have any bearing on this fight but just wanted to throw that out there.

Oh of course and assuming equal distribution of mass, gravity'd get lower the closer to the center of Earth you are. Not saying Nupes can't tear apart a planet.

He can, just, you know, not that casually.

[Cody]

So how does the sudden *DBZ fighters at the end are easily massively faster than light* fit with *Movie characters are much more powerful and faster than manga characters, even a Non-canon SSJ1 is massively more powerful than a canon SSJ3*?

Are you seriously trying to say Battle of the Gods is non-canon? Despite the numerous discussions where this was brought up and explained how it was, in fact, canon? Battle of the Gods, unlike all the other movies, was written, directed, and drawn by Akira Toriyama, the creator and writer and artist of the series. It is a true sequel to the main series. It is canon. As has been said so many times on here that I have lost count. I don't mean to have an attitude about this but this has been explained so many times that it is getting annoying.

That, and I stated that the only ones that reach the "MFTL" area is Bills, SSG, and probably Whiss(hard to say about him however, despite him being stated to be Bills superior he lacks feats).

[Hazard]

I think he is talking about the other thread with Broly in it.

[abmccray]

This is the same as claiming they are lightspeeders by the Frieza saga. Which, with the vaunted power scaling, means they would be massively FTL by the end of the series, which is all kinds of hilariously wrong.

There are only basically 4 "blitz" jumps after Freeza (Android era SSJ, SSJ2, Gohan, Vegito), and only one of those is a huge "invisible to the jump before" level (Gohan SSJ2 to anyone under him). Where are you getting "massively" with power scaling from?

The jumps after Freeza are not as huge as the jumps from Dragon Ball to Freeza. EOS Goku in base form -is- slightly less than Freeza level. SSJ3 is not a huge jump over SSJ2 at all, just enough to comfortably beat them.

I think a lot of the issues come from a mix of the anime, and that when the Buu saga started, the top tier was only AT PAR with Gohan at the end of the Cell saga, basically (with Gohan being worse).

[Cody]

I think he is talking about the other thread with Broly in it.

Ah, well then I apologize if that is so. However, I did explain the difference in that very thread. Basically the non canon stuff, or stuff from the "aniverse" as I like to call it are generally perceived at being faster, and having a higher energy output than their canon counterparts. So Broly is MFTL in at least travel speed and maybe reaction speed to a certain extent. However, it is hard to say just where it is he ranks as the damage he did to the galaxy in the movie could be from either him moving at incredible speed and chucking out planet busters left and right, or moving at a fast speed while unleashing huge ass blasts of destruction...or a mix of both. Hard to say really.

Basically the canon characters can be seen as FTL, while those around Bill's level may just barely scratch the "MFTL" margin. While anime characters seem to reach that level early on. That or they just have such huge ki output. It is really hard to say when it comes to filler and non-canon movies tbh.

[abmccray]

That, and I stated that the only ones that reach the "MFTL" area is Bills, SSG, and probably Whiss(hard to say about him however, despite him being stated to be Bills superior he lacks feats).

He casually subdued Bills in the middle of his FTL travel between planets (FTL reaction), chopped Bills to sleep (strength), and with his staff, at least (no idea if it was under his own power or mystical stuff), went across the universe without teleporting (travel). This matches his stated presentation (presentation).

[abmccray]

So how does the sudden *DBZ fighters at the end are easily massively faster than light* fit with *Movie characters are much more powerful and faster than manga characters, even a Non-canon SSJ1 is massively more powerful than a canon SSJ3*?

He explained the "massively" (Bills, who has no teleportation, has a job of blowing up planets and galaxies, can blitz everyone else, and needs to get to those places -somehow- is probably a great deal FTL, but at least cal blitz characters like Gohan, who are top tier of EOZ).

Movies attempt to follow anime continuity and thus absorb those high end feats, along with following their OWN continuity, of which has greater feats than anything seen in the series. For instance, with a combo of these, we get:

- Vegeta's father being able to wave his hand and vape a planet and its moons (King Vegeta is non kaioken Goku level)




- Saiyan saga Vegeta casually planet vaporizing without even powering up to the states in which he fought Goku
- Freeza era SSJ1 Goku having a kamehameha fast and powerful enough to get to the sun in seconds and dig into the sun
- Multiple characters able to react to a kamehameha that fast
- IT actually being a ridiculous speed boost instead of a teleport, meaning that as long as Movie Goku can activate it, he can move one tier under Flash speed and react/fight in those speeds
- Goku able to knock away planet busters with his hands
- Trunks able to carry planet busters around casually
- Gohan + Goten making a kamehameha that goes to the sun in seconds and is so powerful it causes an explosion on the other side of the sun
- Buuhan actually ripping apart space-time by powering up
- Janenba being able to reality warp an entire dimension
- Goku creating a bunch of BS techniques like Dragon Fists

etc. etc. etc...

That's why non-canon characters with movie feats are much more powerful than the manga versions. They would slap away their best attacks, blitz them while in IT, while doing BS techniques that odn't make any sense to them, and that's as early as SSJ1.