Why are DC's minority character's lagging behind Marvel's?

[Confuzzled]

Lesbians and bi women get passes, but outside of Constantine how many bi men have their own title? Gay men? Trans people?

Midnighter got some minis of his own lately. Also, other than Batwoman, the LGBTQ women with their own titles were revealed as bi retroactively, so if Catwoman can be revealed as bi, so could Nightwing.

[Confuzzled]

I feel like I'm seeing too many could bes here. I'm not against racebending on principle but how is Selina supposed to be good minority representation when her race is so ambiguous and DC can't even settle on what her racial makeup is?

But DC has been clear that her mother is a darker-skinned Cuban lady.

[Aahz]

Lesbians and bi women get passes, but outside of Constantine how many bi men have their own title? Gay men? Trans people?

In the end it comes down to what sells.

Harley Quinn sells, so she has an ongoing book.

Constantine is a pretty sucessfull solos character (the fist Hellblazer series ran for 300 issues), so they keep using him.

Batwoman sold for a time, so she had a book, and stopped having one when the sales went down and the second ongoing also didn't sell (despite using a story line in TEC to launch it) so she is currently without a book.

Mitnighter and Apollo minis didn't sell, so no ongoing book for them.

[Confuzzled]

Looks like fans ignoring/not supporting minority characters factors in.

Robin is a solo title featuring a minority character. The series also recently brought back a long shelved minority character but that's not listed.

I mean Robin is the most well known sidekick and the mantle has been held by a minority for over a decade now.

Nightwing also another solo headlined by a POC.

That's two supposedly hot solo titles with two of DC's hottest writers and they are not listed.

These anthologies have also featured POC recently

Batman Black and White
Truth and Justice

These are from my very small DC pull list [don't have the full list of what DC is currently publishing]

It's not much of a difference I know but seemed odd that 2 well known mantles/titles led with POC in the lead were over looked.

edit

Jackson Hyde has a mini coming out soon
The main Batman title currently has a number of minority characters.

Ooh I didn't even realize the OP post. Once Robin, Nightwing, Catwoman and The Next Batman are included, DC actually gains the upper hand.

[El_Gato]

I wouldn’t count Nightwing or Catwoman and Robin is debatable too. Those three are White the vast majority of the time and I wouldn’t compare them to the likes of John Stewart, Cassandra Cain or Jaime Reyes for instance.

[Confuzzled]

I wouldn’t count Nightwing or Catwoman and Robin is debatable too. Those three are White the vast majority of the time and I wouldn’t compare them to the likes of John Stewart, Cassandra Cain or Jaime Reyes for instance.

Um, Damian has always been of Arab descent since his conception. It's not super easy to distinguish white passing POC from white people in 2D comics and cartoons or even 3D animation. That doesn't mean they are "white" unless specified otherwise. And ALL of Selina's current adapted versions are WOC, which is a first and a big deal that could very well be the norm for her going forward.

[Fergus]

I wouldn’t count Nightwing or Catwoman and Robin is debatable too. Those three are White the vast majority of the time and I wouldn’t compare them to the likes of John Stewart, Cassandra Cain or Jaime Reyes for instance.

I apologise for the lengthy reply but your comment really bothered me and highlights one of the key factors that make it so hard for characters of colour to gain a foot hold.

First.......

I remember when my daughter was 5. we were watching telly when she suddenly pointed, "Daddy, look it. She like me". Pointing to a little Brown girl in the ad that was currently airing. The girl had her hair styled in Ghana braids with colourful beads similar to my daughter.

She looked so happy. for me a middle aged Irish dude, I had a lightbulb moment. My daughter is going to have to navigate a very different world from the world I did.
That moment has been burnt in my mind ever since.

I am Irish. I always knew representation was important but that moment really hit. I have never had a moment like that and I never will because the world and all the media I consume reflects me. I am the default.

I can't speak for POC because I'm coming from a place of privilege.

My wife is Nigerian and my kids are very light skin [passing]. AS light skinned as they are slight differences which mark them as not Caucasian, not West African.

Representation in media should reflect the diverse skin tones, hair types, eye colour, sexual orientation, cultures etc that make up this world.

Not just the two extremes [white and Black, Gay and straight, male and female] but everything in the middle as well.

Robin was in the Asian anthology and just yesterday had a story in Truth and Justice where he was discussing his Middle Eastern heritage.

I doubt most American view people from the Middle East as White.

Heck in comics Middle Eastern heroes are the minority compared to African American, Latino and Chinese heroes/characters.

It's sad and revealing that when representation is mentioned people think Black the default while shading the many in the middle.

Revealing when you declare Robin Damian Al Ghul Wayne as debatable in today's climate with all the prejudices / negative stereotypes people from the middle East have to deal with.

I know you don't think Al Ghul originates from Europe yet you debate whether a character bearing that name qualifies as a minority.

Al Ghul is already a signifier of 'other' regardless of the skin [even without visuals] the name indicates that the bearer isn't Caucasian.


Dick is Romani, Selina is Part Cuban [I think] Damian is of mixed MS and Asian decent but they are don't count because they aren't diverse enough. Yes they do enjoy certain privileges but that doesn't mean they aren't excluded.

It doesn't cancel out the fact that they DO FACE negative and damaging hardships of a discriminatory world that all who aren't CIS Straight Caucasian men face.

It's a problem when fans pushing for inclusion exclude others.

There's a caste system even amongst progressives who deride DC for not doing enough for minorities it would appear.

How else can we explain the sad fact that the 5 times [ Yes I went back and counted] damian's name has come up, it's been to remind people who know for a fact that Damian isn't Caucasian that he is a minority character?

The fact that you think Damian Wayne being a POC is debateable is proof positive that Marvel is light years ahead of DC when it comes to handling minorities.

Dc doesn't care about representation worse than that [in terms of the objectives of a company] they aren't savvy.

Damian is a hugely popular character for years now. Well known not just to comic readers but to casuals yet DC didn't ever think to highlight his heritage. The kid became Robin in 2009! He was a breakout character before Miles and Kamala [Marvel success stories that commenters here cite over and over] ever hit the pages.

Here we are in 2021, a bunch of comic readers debating minority characters and unsure whether if he is a minority.

smh.

The trend continues. Dc pioneers something but drop the ball. Marvel comes along does the same and cash's in while DC is left looking a fool who slept on a good thing.



dashing this off in a hurry, got carried away had no time to proof read. The missus is shouting me.
sorry for any errors /reads like a ramble

[Agent Z]

I apologise for the lengthy reply but your comment really bothered me and highlights one of the key factors that make it so hard for characters of colour to gain a foot hold.

First.......

I remember when my daughter was 5. we were watching telly when she suddenly pointed, "Daddy, look it. She like me". Pointing to a little Brown girl in the ad that was currently airing. The girl had her hair styled in Ghana braids with colourful beads similar to my daughter.

She looked so happy. for me a middle aged Irish dude, I had a lightbulb moment. My daughter is going to have to navigate a very different world from the world I did.
That moment has been burnt in my mind ever since.

I am Irish. I always knew representation was important but that moment really hit. I have never had a moment like that and I never will because the world and all the media I consume reflects me. I am the default.

I can't speak for POC because I'm coming from a place of privilege.

My wife is Nigerian and my kids are very light skin [passing]. AS light skinned as they are slight differences which mark them as not Caucasian, not West African.

Representation in media should reflect the diverse skin tones, hair types, eye colour, sexual orientation, cultures etc that make up this world.

Not just the two extremes [white and Black, Gay and straight, male and female] but everything in the middle as well.

Robin was in the Asian anthology and just yesterday had a story in Truth and Justice where he was discussing his Middle Eastern heritage.

I doubt most American view people from the Middle East as White.

Heck in comics Middle Eastern heroes are the minority compared to African American, Latino and Chinese heroes/characters.

It's sad and revealing that when representation is mentioned people think Black the default while shading the many in the middle.

Revealing when you declare Robin Damian Al Ghul Wayne as debatable in today's climate with all the prejudices / negative stereotypes people from the middle East have to deal with.

I know you don't think Al Ghul originates from Europe yet you debate whether a character bearing that name qualifies as a minority.

Al Ghul is already a signifier of 'other' regardless of the skin [even without visuals] the name indicates that the bearer isn't Caucasian.


Dick is Romani, Selina is Part Cuban [I think] Damian is of mixed MS and Asian decent but they are don't count because they aren't diverse enough. Yes they do enjoy certain privileges but that doesn't mean they aren't excluded.

It doesn't cancel out the fact that they DO FACE negative and damaging hardships of a discriminatory world that all who aren't CIS Straight Caucasian men face.

It's a problem when fans pushing for inclusion exclude others.

There's a caste system even amongst progressives who deride DC for not doing enough for minorities it would appear.

How else can we explain the sad fact that the 5 times [ Yes I went back and counted] damian's name has come up, it's been to remind people who know for a fact that Damian isn't Caucasian that he is a minority character?

The fact that you think Damian Wayne being a POC is debateable is proof positive that Marvel is light years ahead of DC when it comes to handling minorities.

Dc doesn't care about representation worse than that [in terms of the objectives of a company] they aren't savvy.

Damian is a hugely popular character for years now. Well known not just to comic readers but to casuals yet DC didn't ever think to highlight his heritage. The kid became Robin in 2009! He was a breakout character before Miles and Kamala [Marvel success stories that commenters here cite over and over] ever hit the pages.

Here we are in 2021, a bunch of comic readers debating minority characters and unsure whether if he is a minority.

smh.

The trend continues. Dc pioneers something but drop the ball. Marvel comes along does the same and cash's in while DC is left looking a fool who slept on a good thing.



dashing this off in a hurry, got carried away had no time to proof read. The missus is shouting me.
sorry for any errors /reads like a ramble

Dick and Selina being minorities were retcons introduced very late into their histories after decades of stories portraying them as white and not even hinting they were anything else. The issue with Damian's race is rooted entirely in the racism and Orientalism that the al Ghuls and the League of Assassins have been plagued with since their inception.

Note that DC has characters who were created as mixed race that they ignore or, worse, try to bury such as Cassandra Cain, Connor Hawke, Traci 13 and Koryak. And yes I am aware that the latter two have recently been returned but even then, that doesn't change the fact that DC spent years treating them like trash and even now they still get treated like crap compared to their white counterparts.

As I have said before, I am not against racebending on principle. But if you are going to do it, then commit to it. And don't use it an excuse to treat characters that were created as minorities so shabbily.

[Aahz]

Dick is Romani, Selina is Part Cuban [I think] Damian is of mixed MS and Asian decent but they are don't count because they aren't diverse enough. Yes they do enjoy certain privileges but that doesn't mean they aren't excluded.

It doesn't cancel out the fact that they DO FACE negative and damaging hardships of a discriminatory world that all who aren't CIS Straight Caucasian men face.

At least in case of Dick and Selina I have to disagree.
Both look white, have "normal" amarican names and seem to have no conection the culture they are from.
And in comics you have to really read hundrets of comics with them as main character, without it ever beeing even hinted at.

They might be techically POC, but in terms of representation you can't really count them.

With Damian with Damian the origin is more visible, but he still lacks a real connection to any existing middle eastern culture.

[Confuzzled]

At least in case of Dick and Selina I have to disagree.
Both look white, have "normal" amarican names and seem to have no conection the culture they are from.
And in comics you have to really read hundrets of comics with them as main character, without it ever beeing even hinted at.

They might be techically POC, but in terms of representation you can't really count them.

With Damian with Damian the origin is more visible, but he still lacks a real connection to any existing middle eastern culture.

Damian wanted to dress in traditional Middle Eastern clothing for Bruce and Selina's wedding so there's that. Now there will be a whole generation growing up with multiple versions of a minority race Catwoman so that's going to influence the future too.

But overall Fergus raises an excellent point that DC is nowhere as savvy as Marvel so despite being ahead of them many times, don't know what they have and end up dropping the ball multiple times. Can you imagine the noise Marvel would have created by now if Peter Parker had a Middle Eastern child? They would have ensured even CNN was picking it up. Heck, Fox News would have jumped in with their negative spin too, making Damian one of pop-culture's most discussed topics.

[Aahz]

Damian wanted to dress in traditional Middle Eastern clothing for Bruce and Selina's wedding so there's that.

But you see him way ofter with stuff (cloth, weapons...) that come from east asian cultures.

[Common Writer]

Don't know if this has been said already.

My theory as to why DC is lagging behind Marvel in terms of diversity is that New York City lies at the heart of the Marvel Comics Universe and New York is the most diverse city on the planet. So it would make sense for the pantheon of Marvel heroes to reflect that diversity.

Don't know if this has been said either.

DC has a history of favoring white-skinned aliens over Earthlings of Color. I call it, the Superman Principle.

[Confuzzled]

Don't know if this has been said already.

My theory as to why DC is lagging behind Marvel in terms of diversity is that New York City lies at the heart of the Marvel Comics Universe and New York is the most diverse city on the planet. So it would make sense for the pantheon of Marvel heroes to reflect that diversity.

Don't know if this has been said either.

DC has a history of favoring aliens over human minorites. In other words, its the Superman Principle.

I don't think that's a significant factor considering Marvel has a sprawling cosmos faction too. And also because many of Marvel's more popular POC characters like Black Panther and Ms. Marvel aren't New Yorkers.

If we could pinpoint to one single thing that upped Marvel's number of minorities then it would have to be the X-Men, which makes sense as mutants are a minority metaphor.

[Common Writer]

I don't think that's a significant factor considering Marvel has a sprawling cosmos faction too. And also because many of Marvel's more popular POC characters like Black Panther and Ms. Marvel aren't New Yorkers.

If we could pinpoint to one single thing that upped Marvel's number of minorities then it would have to be the X-Men, which makes sense as mutants are a minority metaphor.

I don't know much about the X-Men nor Ms. Marvel, but I could say that the majority of Black Panther stories take place in New York City with the Avengers than in Wakanda with his people.

[El_Gato]

I apologise for the lengthy reply but your comment really bothered me and highlights one of the key factors that make it so hard for characters of colour to gain a foot hold.

First.......

I remember when my daughter was 5. we were watching telly when she suddenly pointed, "Daddy, look it. She like me". Pointing to a little Brown girl in the ad that was currently airing. The girl had her hair styled in Ghana braids with colourful beads similar to my daughter.

She looked so happy. for me a middle aged Irish dude, I had a lightbulb moment. My daughter is going to have to navigate a very different world from the world I did.
That moment has been burnt in my mind ever since.

I am Irish. I always knew representation was important but that moment really hit. I have never had a moment like that and I never will because the world and all the media I consume reflects me. I am the default.

I can't speak for POC because I'm coming from a place of privilege.

My wife is Nigerian and my kids are very light skin [passing]. AS light skinned as they are slight differences which mark them as not Caucasian, not West African.

Representation in media should reflect the diverse skin tones, hair types, eye colour, sexual orientation, cultures etc that make up this world.

Not just the two extremes [white and Black, Gay and straight, male and female] but everything in the middle as well.

Robin was in the Asian anthology and just yesterday had a story in Truth and Justice where he was discussing his Middle Eastern heritage.

I doubt most American view people from the Middle East as White.

Heck in comics Middle Eastern heroes are the minority compared to African American, Latino and Chinese heroes/characters.

It's sad and revealing that when representation is mentioned people think Black the default while shading the many in the middle.

Revealing when you declare Robin Damian Al Ghul Wayne as debatable in today's climate with all the prejudices / negative stereotypes people from the middle East have to deal with.

I know you don't think Al Ghul originates from Europe yet you debate whether a character bearing that name qualifies as a minority.

Al Ghul is already a signifier of 'other' regardless of the skin [even without visuals] the name indicates that the bearer isn't Caucasian.


Dick is Romani, Selina is Part Cuban [I think] Damian is of mixed MS and Asian decent but they are don't count because they aren't diverse enough. Yes they do enjoy certain privileges but that doesn't mean they aren't excluded.

It doesn't cancel out the fact that they DO FACE negative and damaging hardships of a discriminatory world that all who aren't CIS Straight Caucasian men face.

It's a problem when fans pushing for inclusion exclude others.

There's a caste system even amongst progressives who deride DC for not doing enough for minorities it would appear.

How else can we explain the sad fact that the 5 times [ Yes I went back and counted] damian's name has come up, it's been to remind people who know for a fact that Damian isn't Caucasian that he is a minority character?

The fact that you think Damian Wayne being a POC is debateable is proof positive that Marvel is light years ahead of DC when it comes to handling minorities.

Dc doesn't care about representation worse than that [in terms of the objectives of a company] they aren't savvy.

Damian is a hugely popular character for years now. Well known not just to comic readers but to casuals yet DC didn't ever think to highlight his heritage. The kid became Robin in 2009! He was a breakout character before Miles and Kamala [Marvel success stories that commenters here cite over and over] ever hit the pages.

Here we are in 2021, a bunch of comic readers debating minority characters and unsure whether if he is a minority.

smh.

The trend continues. Dc pioneers something but drop the ball. Marvel comes along does the same and cash's in while DC is left looking a fool who slept on a good thing.



dashing this off in a hurry, got carried away had no time to proof read. The missus is shouting me.
sorry for any errors /reads like a ramble

I’m not discounting anyone. All I’m saying is that counting Selina, Dick and Kyle (throwing him in there) as minorities is missing the point. They’re White characters who were retconned into another race in a specific run and then forgotten about there after. Only time it’s brought up is when fans are comparing Marvels success with POC to DC’s. Adding in those three makes DC look good, whereas if you remove them, Marvel slaughters DC.

As for Damian, it’s only been recently that they’ve brought up his Middle Eastern heritage, for the vast majority of his existence he’s been depicted as a mini Bruce Wayne, only difference being he has green eyes.