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  1. #196
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    It's ironic that some years ago the Brad Metzger JLA was pretty diverse. Both Vixen and BL were on the team and 4 out of 10 members were female. Some fans would be screaming bloody murder at such a line these days.
    I think that's because some fans' notion that companies are shoving an agenda down their throats didn't exist yet. And neither did twitter where creators choose to call customers bigots for not wanting their favorites to be replaced. That and obviously the huge division we have now, so some people pretty much lash out at any decision by the publisher that in some way seems political to them.
    Last edited by Johnny; 10-04-2017 at 04:51 AM.

  2. #197
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kurenai24 View Post
    I will say since Tony Isabella is doing a mini with Black Lightning, that right now the relationship with DC is okay, but I don't think Tony is a fan of Black Lightning being in teams or teams his character doesn't lead.

    So if DC were to ever actually consider BL for Justice League, him needing to be the leader would probably make them reconsider that.

    Ultimately everything is a bit complicated when considering BL.
    Going by Isabella, I'm under the impression things are actually cleared up with Black Lightning.

    I understood it to be that he wasn't interested in BL taking a back seat to any other characters. Say for instance, like in the 90's run where it felt like he was a disciple of Batman. Likewise in the Outsiders run. BL is and should be his own man.

    I doubt he'd be against him being on the League, though. As long as he's treated as an equal I wouldn't see why that would be a problem.

    Black Lightning is an original and should be treated like one.

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    I think that's because some fans' notion that companies are shoving an agenda down their throats didn't exist yet. And neither did twitter where creators choose to call customers bigots for not wanting their favorites to be replaced. That and obviously the huge division we have now, so some people pretty much lash out at any decision by the publisher that in some way seems political to them.
    While I don't think any creator has actually said that anyone who doesn't want to see a character replaced is automatically a bigot and I think a lot of the "throat shoving" rhetoric is overblown, I think you make a valid point about how important social media is these days and how personal some people take these things.

  4. #199
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    The listing on the first page was ridiculous.
    Both Hal and GLC and GLs are Green Lantern books which pull similar numbers. Hal's book barely leads before Simon's and Jessica's book by 800 - 1100
    Cap America #25 sold due to the Sam vs. Steve tease. Should've used previous months where Steve normally outsold Sam.
    Why is Bane here?

    Spider-Man, Black Panther, Hulk and Iron Man pull in sales since they're books based on well known characters.

    So we have new Superman, Blue Beetle and Cyborg vs. Ms. Marvel, Luke Cage, America and Moon Girl.

    I'm surprised Cage isn't doing better since he's a Netflix star.

    So we have DC with 11,620 avg. against Marvel's 11,581 avg. Not bad considering some titles are probably missing.
    Last edited by Triniking1234; 10-04-2017 at 10:20 AM.

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by mace11 View Post
    You left these out.
    I think all of main cast is poc.
    DC
    Gotham Academy Second Semester-12 6,572

    MARVEL
    Nick Fury 5-9,145

    It's a mini-series anyway like bane conquest.
    TEAM BOOK
    Black Panther Crew 5-11,587
    Black Panther Crew 6-11,435


    If you include the star wars books
    Star Wars Doctor Aphra 11-36,472
    Star Wars Doctor Aphra Annua 1-34,473

    She looks like euro-asian asian in art i have seen and she is lgbt.

    and
    Star Wars Poe Dameron 18-33,443


    Note-
    Bane: Conquest
    Twelve issue mini-series
    I forgot to mention that the main lead in this comic is east asian.
    Marvel
    Monsters Unleashed 5 8,614

  6. #201
    Astonishing Member kurenai24's Avatar
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    So there was something said about Cyborg in NYCC, I think it had to do with the Metal event but it ultimately sounded like something they've said before.

    Milestone characters were talked about and their books were announced for Spring 2018.

    And New Age of DC Heroes formally Dark Metal or Dark Matter have introduced some diverse characters, we'll have to keep our eyes peeled for how DC handle these characters.

    As well as the their other characters like John Stewart, Vixen, Bumblbee, Blue Beetle etc. Basically their minority characters that are bot a part of these initiatives or are a part of a Justice League.
    Last edited by kurenai24; 10-10-2017 at 08:49 AM.
    My priority is black female characters; everything else is secondary.

    ~~

    Marvel: Miles Morales, Riri Williams, Ororo Munroe, Thor, Quentin Quire.
    DC Comics: Vixen, Batman, Bat Family, John Stewart, Roy Harper, Tempest, Poison Ivy, Raven.
    Comics: Y: The Last Man, Justice League America (2009), Ultimate Comics: All New Spider-Man (2011)
    Ships: Thororo/ThunderStorm, Vixen/hasn't been created, Jason Todd/Kathy Duquesne.


    ~~

    Icon/Avatar by LoneNecromancer

  7. #202
    Fantastic Member Samm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    DC
    Green Lanterns #28 -- 30,024
    Green Lanterns #29 -- 29,451
    Bane Conquest #4 -- 17,615
    New Super-Man #14 -- 12,339
    Blue Beetle #12 -- 11,574
    Cyborg #15 -- 10,949

    Marvel
    Captain America #25 -- 40,428
    Spider-Man #19 -- 30,387
    Black Panther #17 -- 25,609
    Totally Awesome Hill #22 -- 24,995
    Infamous Iron-Man #11 -- 24,676
    Ms Marvels #21 -- 17,010
    Luke Cage #4 -- 12,330
    America #6 -- 9,548
    Moon Girl #22 --7,466

    So recently I got into a debate on social media about DC and Marvel's treatment of their minority characters. Somewhere along the way some fans started to claim that DC did diversity right while Marvel' s way felt more like an agenda or fulfilling a quota so to speak. Others felt Marvel's approach was correct and more successful. That got me curious to see which claim had more merit. To my surprise the second claim can actually be backed up by factual sales instead of ones opinion.

    I listed the comic sales for the month of August above. As you can see, Marvel's roster of minority character's is in a much healthier position than their DC counterpart. Now of course there are exceptions, Green Lanterns is in a healthy position whereas Luke Cage, America and Moon Girl definitely aren't. However the fact still remains, DC's are not only at a lower issue number but also much closer to cancellation.

    My question is why do you think that is? Why is their such a wide gap? Marvel has a few minority characters at 100+ solo issues (Shang Chi, Luke Cage, Black Panther) and some newer ones at 50+ (Miles, Miguel, Ms Marvel, War Machine) but DC has none at 100+ (unless you count Kyle who was reconned to be Latino) and their 50+ character's will likely never see a solo again due to fanboyism (Cass Cain, John Stewart, Steel, Static... Blue Beetle Is the exception here).
    Three years later and what has changed? None of the characters listed on page one from DC have books anymore, many of them are in limbo. They tried new diverse heroes with New Age of Heroes (Silencer and Sideways) but they didn’t last long. Right now they have Naomi and Far Sector...that’s it.

    Meanwhile the Marvel side, Miles, Kamala, and Tchalla still have books. The others that lost their books are currently on teams (unlike their DC counterparts).

    Why does DC struggle so much in this area? Marvel makes it look like a cakewalk. Are DC’s POC just not as appealing as Marvel’s?

  8. #203
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    They are not completely in limbo, Jessica Cruz and Cyborg are in Justice League Odysse, several of the younger just pooped up in Young Justice (but they will probbaly not stay that long), and the current line up of the Teen Titans is also pretty diverse, as is Outsiders and the current Suicide Squad.

    And is really cakewalk for Marvel? Appart from Miles and Kamala non of the their new characters stuck (and Black Panther has been around for decades, so you can't really compare him with the DC characters), and Kamala's sales were iirc also pretty low lately.

    And if I look at the new diverse characters like the "New New Warriors" they wanted to put out this year ...
    Last edited by Aahz; 07-06-2020 at 10:52 PM.

  9. #204
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    Three years later and what has changed? None of the characters listed on page one from DC have books anymore, many of them are in limbo. They tried new diverse heroes with New Age of Heroes (Silencer and Sideways) but they didn’t last long. Right now they have Naomi and Far Sector...that’s it.

    Meanwhile the Marvel side, Miles, Kamala, and Tchalla still have books. The others that lost their books are currently on teams (unlike their DC counterparts).

    Why does DC struggle so much in this area? Marvel makes it look like a cakewalk. Are DC’s POC just not as appealing as Marvel’s?
    Sales from ComicPOP put it pretty well; Marvel will print anything that makes money, DC will print anything that a handful of guys at DC want to make. Marvel sees "People like diversity and diversity sells?" and they put out some diverse characters and work at them until they find their audience. DC will see the same thing, not see immediate gangbusters and forget about it and fall back on their "good ol' boys". DC is too wrapped up in it's own identity as DC, they do not care about changing with contemporary sensibilities. they care about their age-old icons and would rather play to the old crowd who already like their stuff and try to make that fit what other viewers want, than taking a risk to grow with the times.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 07-07-2020 at 01:02 AM.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham

    "power does not corrupt, power always reveals."

    Martin to Malcolm: militant Professor X is kinda the wave right now

    DC: Batman & The Outsiders, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Far Sector, Red Hood/Outlaws

    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, X-Men (2019), Venom, X-Force, Hellions, Giant Sized X-Men

    Anticipated titles: anything from Milestone*, X of Swords

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    Three years later and what has changed? None of the characters listed on page one from DC have books anymore, many of them are in limbo. They tried new diverse heroes with New Age of Heroes (Silencer and Sideways) but they didn¬’t last long. Right now they have Naomi and Far Sector...that¬’s it.

    Meanwhile the Marvel side, Miles, Kamala, and Tchalla still have books. The others that lost their books are currently on teams (unlike their DC counterparts).

    Why does DC struggle so much in this area? Marvel makes it look like a cakewalk. Are DC¬’s POC just not as appealing as Marvel¬’s?
    Harley Quinn,Cassandra Cain,Lady Shiva,Duke,Luke,Firestorm,Harper Row and her brother,Bunker.....

    Its VERY SIMPLE!!!

    1. DC has more TEAM!!! Characters!!!

    Look at YOUNG JUSTICE, for example!!

    Tim Drake,Conner Kent,Bart Allen,Cassandra Sandsmark,Amethyst,Teen Lantern,Spoiler,Jackson,Miguel,Summer,Arrowette,Wo nder Twins,Hex,Sideways

    -Hex has a girlfriend
    -Jackson
    -Sideways
    -Teen Lantern
    -Miguel


    Or look at Teen Titans (Damians second team)!!!

    Damian,Crush,Emiko,Wallace West,Djinn,Roundhose

    -Crush
    -Damian
    -Wallace
    -Roundhouse
    -Emiko
    -Djinn


    AND there is also Star-Blossom...Nubia is coming back in a comic (I dont know if this comic is canon)....
    IRIS WEST II and her brother JAI WEST

    2. Compare AVENGERS with JUSTICE LEAGUE

    AVENGERS have humans with Black Widow,Iron Man,Captain America,Ant-Man,Hawkeye,Hulk,Quicksilver.....
    JUSTICE LEAGUE has Atlanteans,Aliens,Demigodess Amazon,and some humans like Flash,Batman

    I dont read Marvel, BUT I always thought that Marvel is more focused on humans or humans with powers (Hulk,Spider-Man,X-Men,....) while some of DC most prominent characters are Atlanteans,Aliens,Amazons....with some meta-humans and humans like Batman.

    If you say DC the most prominent characters are SUPERMAN (ALIEN), BATMAN (HUMAN), WONDER WOMAN (AMAZON), FLASH (META-HUMAN), GREEN ARROW (HUMAN)...
    Last edited by Masterff; 07-06-2020 at 11:14 PM.

  11. #206
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    Harley Quinn,Cassandra Cain,Lady Shiva,Duke,Luke,Firestorm,Harper Row and her brother,Bunker.....

    Its VERY SIMPLE!!!

    1. DC has more TEAM!!! Characters!!!

    Look at YOUNG JUSTICE, for example!!

    Tim Drake,Conner Kent,Bart Allen,Cassandra Sandsmark,Amethyst,Teen Lantern,Spoiler,Jackson,Miguel,Summer,Arrowette,Wo nder Twins,Hex,Sideways

    -Hex has a girlfriend
    -Jackson
    -Sideways
    -Teen Lantern
    -Miguel


    Or look at Teen Titans (Damians second team)!!!

    Damian,Crush,Emiko,Wallace West,Djinn,Roundhose

    -Crush
    -Damian
    -Wallace
    -Roundhouse
    -Emiko
    -Djinn


    AND there is also Star-Blossom...Nubia is coming back in a comic (I dont know if this comic is canon)....
    IRIS WEST II and her brother JAI WEST

    2. Compare AVENGERS with JUSTICE LEAGUE

    AVENGERS have humans with Black Widow,Iron Man,Captain America,Ant-Man,Hawkeye,Hulk,Quicksilver.....
    JUSTICE LEAGUE has Atlanteans,Aliens,Demigodess Amazon,and some humans like Flash,Batman

    I dont read Marvel, BUT I always thought that Marvel is more focused on humans or humans with powers (Hulk,Spider-Man,X-Men,....) while some of DC most prominent characters are Atlanteans,Aliens,Amazons....with some meta-humans and humans like Batman.

    If you say DC the most prominent characters are SUPERMAN (ALIEN), BATMAN (HUMAN), WONDER WOMAN (AMAZON), FLASH (META-HUMAN), GREEN ARROW (HUMAN)...
    Do Aliens, Amazons, Atlanteans really count as diverse if they look like the average(supermodel) white person
    GrindrStone(D)

  12. #207
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Do Aliens, Amazons, Atlanteans really count as diverse if they look like the average(supermodel) white person
    No, they don't. I actually think it's pretty insulting that any and every important alien that looks human is yet another white person. feels like eurogaze on a cosmic level.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham

    "power does not corrupt, power always reveals."

    Martin to Malcolm: militant Professor X is kinda the wave right now

    DC: Batman & The Outsiders, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Far Sector, Red Hood/Outlaws

    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, X-Men (2019), Venom, X-Force, Hellions, Giant Sized X-Men

    Anticipated titles: anything from Milestone*, X of Swords

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    No, they don't. I actually think it's pretty insulting that any and every important alien that looks human is yet another white person. feels like eurogaze on a cosmic level.
    Val Zod of Earth 2 is kryptonian and the Superman of Earth 2..
    MARTIAN MANHUNTER isnt white as human or?
    Naomi is also alien or partially alien or?
    Starfire is ORANGE
    Sinestro

    Sorry, but many Aliens in DC have green,orange,red......skin and arent white...

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Do Aliens, Amazons, Atlanteans really count as diverse if they look like the average(supermodel) white person
    I DIDNT!!!!! say that.

    What I mean is:
    Atlanteans and Amazons dont really count for me, because I put them simply together as Atlanteans and Amazons.
    Aliens also dont matter for me in this discussion, because they are Aliens.

    Marvel instead has HUMANS like Hulk,Spider-Man,Iron Man,Dr.Strange,Black Panther,Captain America.......
    Last edited by Masterff; 07-07-2020 at 03:10 AM.

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Sales from ComicPOP put it pretty well; Marvel will print anything that makes money, DC will print anything that a handful of guys at DC want to make. Marvel sees "People like diversity and diversity sells?" and they put out some diverse characters and work at them until they find their audience. DC will see the same thing, not see immediate gangbusters and forget about it and fall back on their "good ol' boys". DC is too wrapped up in it's own identity as DC, they do not care about changing with contemporary sensibilities. they care about their age-old icons and would rather play to the old crowd who already like their stuff and try to make that fit what other viewers want, than taking a risk to grow with the times.
    It is nor like the situation is really differnt with Marvel, if look at their sales (pre Corvid 19) it were mostly their iconic heroes that dominated the sales charts, Miles Morales was somewhere down in the 20-30K range, Kamala was deep in the cancellation region and the other new diverse characters seemed to be in limbo (if I didn't overlooked something).

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Sales from ComicPOP put it pretty well; Marvel will print anything that makes money, DC will print anything that a handful of guys at DC want to make. Marvel sees "People like diversity and diversity sells?" and they put out some diverse characters and work at them until they find their audience. DC will see the same thing, not see immediate gangbusters and forget about it and fall back on their "good ol' boys". DC is too wrapped up in it's own identity as DC, they do not care about changing with contemporary sensibilities. they care about their age-old icons and would rather play to the old crowd who already like their stuff and try to make that fit what other viewers want, than taking a risk to grow with the times.
    Does diversoty actually sell tho? As a comparison - the UK has provided dc with some of its best writers and artists over the last 40 years and 70m of us can barely keep a UK character going in one book. One would like to think there is huge untapped markets so more people come into the shops for monthly books but its hard to see that actually being a thing.

    If its just another person shooting lazers but they are black, gay, from Micronesia etc who really cares beyond a small subset of hardcore readers? There is very little of a hook there if its just the same stories reskinned. I can think of nothing ive read from dc (or anyone really) for ages that i could say to someone who normally reads novels or watches films or plays games .. oh yeah you got to read this.

    I can read a novel up to the standard of alan moore for instance every day of the week. I can watch a film up to his standard for years on end. I cant read a comic up to that standard tho.
    Last edited by iron chimp; 07-07-2020 at 05:24 AM.

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