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  1. #211
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    The very beginnings of marvel were founded on misunderstood outcasts and heroes that people don't understand. It's a much more minority friendly set-up. People hate and fear the X-men, the Hulk, the thing is judged on his appearance, and Spider-man is hated by the media when he's just trying to do his own thing. That's already a strong parallel to how minorities are often treated without even having to bring in minorities. When you do bring them in, they just kinda fit right in.

  2. #212
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    Marvel doesn't care about fan criticism, they'll continue to push their minority characters without regard for the backlash that a certain subset of their fanbase gives those characters. For better or for worse, DC caters to their fans and let writers push their favorites.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by iron chimp View Post
    Does diversoty actually sell tho? As a comparison - the UK has provided dc with some of its best writers and artists over the last 40 years and 70m of us can barely keep a UK character going in one book. One would like to think there is huge untapped markets so more people come into the shops for monthly books but its hard to see that actually being a thing.

    If its just another person shooting lazers but they are black, gay, from Micronesia etc who really cares beyond a small subset of hardcore readers? There is very little of a hook there if its just the same stories reskinned. I can think of nothing ive read from dc (or anyone really) for ages that i could say to someone who normally reads novels or watches films or plays games .. oh yeah you got to read this.

    I can read a novel up to the standard of alan moore for instance every day of the week. I can watch a film up to his standard for years on end. I cant read a comic up to that standard tho.
    That untapped market is NOT going to bother with a comic book store. Because some comic book stores are nowhere near them.

    If I take (using Texas cities here) Lancaster, Red Oak, Glenn Heights and the POC parts of East Dallas and South Dallas-guess how many comic book stores there are? ONE. That is closer to Downtown Dallas area. With a bus service that runs every HOUR not the normal 20 minutes.

    That untapped market is not going to hunt down a comic book store-especially those who have heard HORROR stories of how anyone not a white make gets treated.

    That market is look straight at TRADES and OGNS be it Amazon, Wal-Mart, Barnes & Nobles, half Price Books or whoever.

    It's not that an Aqualad book can't sell. You Bought Me The Ocean is a top 100 seller on Amazon. That couldn't work if you did a 6 part mini floppy.

    Because the usual set of complainers would attack that book and that would be BEFORE store owners throw in comments. Especially screaming about the creative team being bodies.

    I know who Alex Sanchez is. I know who Julie Maroh is-one of her books is a movie. So while comic book gatekeepers are thrashing those two. Folks who know their work are buying that book including schools and libraries.


    The format is the issue. because it's funny all these diverse books can find an audience OUTSIDE the direct market.

    Beast Boy's book is NOT out yet. Yet on Amazon it has STAYED a top 50 book for teens just on pre-orders alone. Raven's book is still up there.

    No DC Rebirth book is there.

    5 of the top 100 star Miles Morales. With only his second series not listed. Cho Hulk is there. Moon Girl too. Along with Peter Parker.

    Now Dc can't toss out a Duke OGN?? Cyborg?? Black Lightning's girls?

    Wait till NUbia's book get lsited-she'll be up there canon or not.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    That untapped market is NOT going to bother with a comic book store. Because some comic book stores are nowhere near them.

    If I take (using Texas cities here) Lancaster, Red Oak, Glenn Heights and the POC parts of East Dallas and South Dallas-guess how many comic book stores there are? ONE. That is closer to Downtown Dallas area. With a bus service that runs every HOUR not the normal 20 minutes.

    That untapped market is not going to hunt down a comic book store-especially those who have heard HORROR stories of how anyone not a white make gets treated.

    That market is look straight at TRADES and OGNS be it Amazon, Wal-Mart, Barnes & Nobles, half Price Books or whoever.

    It's not that an Aqualad book can't sell. You Bought Me The Ocean is a top 100 seller on Amazon. That couldn't work if you did a 6 part mini floppy.

    Because the usual set of complainers would attack that book and that would be BEFORE store owners throw in comments. Especially screaming about the creative team being bodies.

    I know who Alex Sanchez is. I know who Julie Maroh is-one of her books is a movie. So while comic book gatekeepers are thrashing those two. Folks who know their work are buying that book including schools and libraries.


    The format is the issue. because it's funny all these diverse books can find an audience OUTSIDE the direct market.

    Beast Boy's book is NOT out yet. Yet on Amazon it has STAYED a top 50 book for teens just on pre-orders alone. Raven's book is still up there.

    No DC Rebirth book is there.

    5 of the top 100 star Miles Morales. With only his second series not listed. Cho Hulk is there. Moon Girl too. Along with Peter Parker.

    Now Dc can't toss out a Duke OGN?? Cyborg?? Black Lightning's girls?

    Wait till NUbia's book get lsited-she'll be up there canon or not.
    I agree. The format is part of the problem. I have friends who will play the games or watch the films and when i say oh you should read the comics, they reply with 'i dont know where to start' and i cant answer them. Its very difficult these days to jump in, the stories are stretched out to fit trades when a lot of them could be half the length, and they are continually tripped up by event cross overs and resets. Even a number 1 issue means nothing - that can be in the middle of a story (esp. At marvel) and the cover can mean a absolutely nothing either.

    Ogns are def way forward for people who just want a story without 'the universe' and all of that. Watchmen is easy to recommend - buy the book - story is done in one volume and you can read it again and again.

    But a more diverse crowd needs more diverse stories - most people no.matter who they are arent going to be seen dead reading a regular dc or marvel book - they want other things and dc and marvel actually had all of that for them with epic and vertigo and just sat back and let them die because toys and games were more important than being a publishing company. Now they are saying... wheres the rest of our audience... well you stopped serving them and i dont think a lot of them are coming back to you.

    The books look cheap compared to say Image, its the same story told 60 times a month just reskinned with different characters. I just dont think enough people care about anything they have to offer. Weirdly they do with the games and films though maybe thats because of novelty of cheap cgi and they havent jumped the shark yet like so many of the books did with resets, mindwipes, back from the dead characters, and mumbo jumbo.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    That untapped market is NOT going to bother with a comic book store. Because some comic book stores are nowhere near them.

    If I take (using Texas cities here) Lancaster, Red Oak, Glenn Heights and the POC parts of East Dallas and South Dallas-guess how many comic book stores there are? ONE. That is closer to Downtown Dallas area. With a bus service that runs every HOUR not the normal 20 minutes.

    That untapped market is not going to hunt down a comic book store-especially those who have heard HORROR stories of how anyone not a white make gets treated.

    That market is look straight at TRADES and OGNS be it Amazon, Wal-Mart, Barnes & Nobles, half Price Books or whoever.

    It's not that an Aqualad book can't sell. You Bought Me The Ocean is a top 100 seller on Amazon. That couldn't work if you did a 6 part mini floppy.

    Because the usual set of complainers would attack that book and that would be BEFORE store owners throw in comments. Especially screaming about the creative team being bodies.

    I know who Alex Sanchez is. I know who Julie Maroh is-one of her books is a movie. So while comic book gatekeepers are thrashing those two. Folks who know their work are buying that book including schools and libraries.


    The format is the issue. because it's funny all these diverse books can find an audience OUTSIDE the direct market.

    Beast Boy's book is NOT out yet. Yet on Amazon it has STAYED a top 50 book for teens just on pre-orders alone. Raven's book is still up there.

    No DC Rebirth book is there.

    5 of the top 100 star Miles Morales. With only his second series not listed. Cho Hulk is there. Moon Girl too. Along with Peter Parker.

    Now Dc can't toss out a Duke OGN?? Cyborg?? Black Lightning's girls?

    Wait till NUbia's book get lsited-she'll be up there canon or not.
    Here here. Preach!

  6. #216
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Marvel doesn't care about fan criticism, they'll continue to push their minority characters without regard for the backlash that a certain subset of their fanbase gives those characters. For better or for worse, DC caters to their fans and let writers push their favorites.
    Wow. When you put it like that, it sounds like a good motivation for me to throw money at dc comics. Just as a consumer in general a company that caters to it fans and customer sounds legitimately like the
    type of customer service and interaction I'd like to engage with.
    Moreover, I'm of a mind to think that writers to their best work on subjects and characters that they love or contrarywise HATE, but the fact of the matter is thats you're going to generally get better stories from
    an author who is "MOTIVATED" to write about a character.

    Lots of people who think it'd be cool to write comics when their young want to write about batman or superman... Catman and Vixen... not so much but if someone happens to have that person on their list of favorites
    THEN and ONLY then should they be writing them in a solo for example.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  7. #217
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Marvel doesn't care about fan criticism, they'll continue to push their minority characters without regard for the backlash that a certain subset of their fanbase gives those characters. For better or for worse, DC caters to their fans and let writers push their favorites.
    DC caters to particular fans. The fans making noise that Marvel tends to ignore are typically the same fans DC is scared to offend, that's the difference between the two. Every major move in comics nowadays sparks some form of backlash. Marvel simply recognizes that, in the long run, catering to the fans who create backlash over pushing minority characters isn't worth the backlash of not having diverse characters at all; nor are their viewership worth more than the fans who want diverse characters to prosper. It's not the 70s, people will be checking for not just the quality of your stories and book, but also how aware of the cultural tropes your stories enforce and play into. In the long-run, it simply looks better and makes the most logical sense in an increasingly culturally aware world to push these diverse characters through because, alternatively, it's going to raise more than a few eyebrows if your representation of various cultural, racial, and social groups is clearly a secondary-tier compared to your cis/white/het leads. A demographic that has historically, and deliberately, taken up the lion share of the storytelling landscape in all forms of american media. Marvel's office appears to be more aware of these things comparatively but that's not to say they're doing everything right in regards to representation either mind you. However, DC does not seem to be aware of or truly subscribe to these thoughts at all. it appears DC has a particular set of priorities that "just so happens" to line up with the type of fans who complain about almost any push for more diverse characters.

    It's as simple as this, Marvel is more likely to go to bat against these fans for their minority characters in order to break into those demographics while DC is less inclined to.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham

    "power does not corrupt, power always reveals."

    Martin to Malcolm: militant Professor X is kinda the wave right now

    DC: Batman & The Outsiders, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Far Sector, Red Hood/Outlaws

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    Anticipated titles: anything from Milestone*, X of Swords

  8. #218
    Incredible Member The no face guy's Avatar
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    I think it is because Marvel comes up with, and pushes original non white characters (Black Panther. Luke Cage) instead of making them replacement heroes that are not as popular as the original. so they end up taking a back seat. (Multiple Green Lantern's Flash's ect)

    If DC would constantly push Black Lighting, Vixen, Bronze Tiger ect, they might become as popular overtime.

  9. #219
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    I think it is because Marvel comes up with, and pushes original non white characters (Black Panther. Luke Cage) instead of making them replacement heroes that are not as popular as the original. so they end up taking a back seat. (Multiple Green Lantern's Flash's ect)

    If DC would constantly push Black Lighting, Vixen, Bronze Tiger ect, they might become as popular overtime.
    I don't buy it.

    DC could push them and people would still complain. Hell, when we knew next to nothing to the last attempts at diversity (the New Age of Heroes and Naomi/Far Sector) people were already trashing those at first - I'm pretty sure that Campbell's incredible art helped Naomi and Far Sector to survive the onslaught, that and in the former, Bendis's will to push her no matter what. But the New Age of Heroes were dished when the concept arts appeared. People didn't wait for those to prove themselves. And it'd be the same for Black Lightning or Vixen.

    Those books would be attacked and furthermore they have baggage which can be hard to deal with : BL has Isabella being very unhappy with what DC does with the character and nobody seems to know if he's such a Black Hood hero or something else. Vixen is African and while she may seems to be thus easier to use, I think it's high time that US authors realize that Africa (and Europe too!) is not a country. Cultures, traditions, histories, are very different from Senegal to Zimbabwe for instance. There isn't really a stereotype for Africans, and most clichés are just that, clichés.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    If DC would constantly push Black Lighting, Vixen, Bronze Tiger ect, they might become as popular overtime.
    Didn't work for Cyborg.

    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    I think it is because Marvel comes up with, and pushes original non white characters (Black Panther. Luke Cage) instead of making them replacement heroes that are not as popular as the original. so they end up taking a back seat.
    Luke Cage is also not particularly successful in comics, and Marvel created in also lots of diverse "replacement heroes" like Kamala, Miles and the ANAD Characters.

    But that's general a problem with New Characters, if they are completely original (or a replace an obscure one) sales are low, if they replace a popular character that usually creates a backlash, and they get only high sales as long as the original doesn't come back (so for about a year or two).

    Only way to avoid that is to spin off a popular support character (or a popular member of team) into his own book, but DC's big franchises have already so many popular characters that it is hard to add new ones.

  11. #221
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    if they're new they're a hard sell if they don't fit something and that something can be different depending on when they publish it.

    for example, Jessica Cruz is popular among girls and Tumblr crowd because her anxiety is relatable, and a lot of people feel constant anxiety in this era. They're also using her in other media.

    Maps Mizoguchi and the cast of Gotham Academy has the unfortunate goal of trying to attract the manga crowd when most of them prefer to just read manga that can give more story for the bucks.

    I think what they're doing with Duke Thomas is best because they can slowly build fanbase while not infringing on older character's placement that made some Marvel characters hated. Slowly publishing them as a supporting cast was what they did with Stephanie Brown too. All the while, through the fanbase and the constant appearance, even though it's not headlining anything, people are starting to get to know him.

    They have to be consistent with this method though. They can't stop publishing them otherwise they'll slowly get forgotten.

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySpider View Post
    How do you think DC can fix this? I have noticed that some writers will actually show the spirit form of the animal(s) Vixen is mimicking, so that is a bit better than them just having her think about the animal she is using, or having her say outloud what animal she is using (which makes no sense to me when they have her say it outloud, doesn't make sense for her to do that in-universe. They should just have her use thought balloons).

    Couldn't DC just take a Spider-Man like approach to the way they show Vixen moving and behaving, but instead of just doing whatever a spider can, she is doing whatever any animal can? I'm thinking that if so many people are cool with the visuals of Spider-Man using his powers, than they should have no problem with Vixen doing the same, only she'd be doing it on a much broader and grander scale because she's got the entire animal kingdom at her disposal.
    bump because vixen cortorting her body like a spider or a lion would label her the spider woman slut shame poster girl, plus its alot harder to see heroes as a spectacle of their powetd without selling them with sexualized perk thst goes with being an attractive superheroine with body hugging tights aplenty that leaves little to the imagination.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Didn't work for Cyborg.

    Luke Cage is also not particularly successful in comics, and Marvel created in also lots of diverse "replacement heroes" like Kamala, Miles and the ANAD Characters.

    But that's general a problem with New Characters, if they are completely original (or a replace an obscure one) sales are low, if they replace a popular character that usually creates a backlash, and they get only high sales as long as the original doesn't come back (so for about a year or two).

    Only way to avoid that is to spin off a popular support character (or a popular member of team) into his own book, but DC's big franchises have already so many popular characters that it is hard to add new ones.
    It didn't work with Cyborg because DC got rid of his history with the Titans and insist on writing him as a sad sack. No one wants or likes emo Cyborg, fans want fun Cyborg.

  14. #224
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    DC always seemed a bit more out of touch with everyday people than Marvel has. I think this is because Marvel was a small company that made it big by appealing to certain demographics, while DC was a bunch of smaller companies that came together to form one big company. Marvel is therefore more willing to create and promote minority characters because they know first-hand that they can be profitable.

    Another reason is that WB doesn't seem to understand the appeal of superheroes to the same extent that Disney does.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 07-08-2020 at 10:05 AM.

  15. #225
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Marvel doesn't care about fan criticism, they'll continue to push their minority characters without regard for the backlash that a certain subset of their fanbase gives those characters. For better or for worse, DC caters to their fans and let writers push their favorites.
    That's an interesting take, especially when Marvel was a big proponent of the "because fans demanded it," mantra, even if they sometimes sku things regarding what fans were actually demanding.

    I doubt Marvel doesn't care about fan criticism when they reverted all those All New and All Different legacy changes to go back to the classic heroes and leaked the ending of Secret Empire so people would know the real Captain America was coming back. They tried to push some of those legacy heroes in old/new identities but not to the extent they had previously.

    And I would argue Marvel is equally as guilty of letting writers play favorites or giving them free reign. This defined most of Bendis' later tenure at Marvel and a lot of Jason Aaron's work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Another reason is that WB doesn't seem to understand the appeal of superheroes to the same extent that Disney does.
    I would say they are about even on the TV side, and WB is definitely much better on the animation side.

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