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  1. #226
    Extraordinary Member Holt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Didn't work for Cyborg.
    Because they keep giving him to writers incapable of telling a story that's not him crying about being a freak. It's no surprise people don't wanna be like him. Kids loved cartoon Cyborg because he was actually fun.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    That's an interesting take, especially when Marvel was a big proponent of the "because fans demanded it," mantra, even if they sometimes sku things regarding what fans were actually demanding.

    I doubt Marvel doesn't care about fan criticism when they reverted all those All New and All Different legacy changes to go back to the classic heroes and leaked the ending of Secret Empire so people would know the real Captain America was coming back. They tried to push some of those legacy heroes in old/new identities but not to the extent they had previously.

    And I would argue Marvel is equally as guilty of letting writers play favorites or giving them free reign. This defined most of Bendis' later tenure at Marvel and a lot of Jason Aaron's work.

    I would say they are about even on the TV side, and WB is definitely much better on the animation side.
    If Marvel was really about 'because fans demanded it' One More Day would be completely overturned and retconned instead of the halfway measures we've gotten so far.

  3. #228
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    I still think dc had the most interesting and diverse books when they had terrifics, naomi, michael cray, American carnage, and the sandman book. There was something in that line up for a lot of different readers and far more eclectic than my impression of marvels line up.

    I also think the potential new projects with john Ridley and Milestone (and those delays there arent dcs fault) are far more interesting than marvel.

    People are hard on dc but theyve had some cool projects that just werent supported by readers

  4. #229
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    If Marvel was really about 'because fans demanded it' One More Day would be completely overturned and retconned instead of the halfway measures we've gotten so far.
    Tell me about it .

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    Because they keep giving him to writers incapable of telling a story that's not him crying about being a freak. It's no surprise people don't wanna be like him. Kids loved cartoon Cyborg because he was actually fun.
    Walker and Semper Jr can and have written better than that. The issue was the editor kept that man versus machine nonsense going on.

    It's part of the reason Walker left the book-he tried changing Cyborg's look as well and got tired of the editor.


    I doubt Marvel doesn't care about fan criticism when they reverted all those All New and All Different legacy changes to go back to the classic heroes and leaked the ending of Secret Empire so people would know the real Captain America was coming back.
    The originals coming back was ALWAYS expected. Because it happened every other time with those guys.

    The main crybabies were folks who don't read comics or hated seeing certain types of characters get promoted.

    Punisher and Doom called themselves Ironman and War Machine. To ZERO backlash.

    Riri did not call herself Ironman. Kamala took over a name that was NOT active. Folks screamed the world was ending.

    Aside from Bruce Banner-everyone else was around in some form. And even with them back-we still get thread after thread BEGGING for POC to be back in the background.


    I still think dc had the most interesting and diverse books when they had terrifics, naomi, michael cray, American carnage, and the sandman book. There was something in that line up for a lot of different readers and far more eclectic than my impression of marvels line up.
    When folks don't care for the writer it does not matter what line up they have.

    I say that as someone who bought Michael Cray-the floppies and TRADES. Yet all I saw was folks take issue with the writer and artist being BLACK and TRIED to pick fights with both guys.


    I also think the potential new projects with john Ridley and Milestone (and those delays there arent dcs fault) are far more interesting than marvel.
    Well when they get made and release we will see-how many folks put their money where their mouths are.

    As for not DC's fault-what is their EXCUSE before all that? They had Static and the SAME editor who RUINED Cyborg's book botched that one too. Where are all the trades? That could have competed with Black Panther and Miles and Moon Girl?

    Folks are hard on DC because while Naomi and Jo are nice-they are NOT Vixen or Black Lightning's daughters.

    Like Marvel-folks are asking where are the ones who have been there since day one??? Nubia gets dusted off but Vixen and BL's girls have tv shows. Where are their OGNs?

  6. #231
    Incredible Member The no face guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Didn't work for Cyborg.
    Wow I was just making a passing comment, but valid point on both Cyborg and Luke Cage, but I would argue that if you look at the history of comic sales, minority heroes have not sold well. (I do not know why this is, and I wish I could change it) That is why I think that both DC and Marvel should push diverse heroes in comics even if they do not sell well, to ensure a wide range of diversity in comic books. Sometimes other considerations are more important than the bottom line. PS, Cyborg is kind of dull.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Luke Cage is also not particularly successful in comics, and Marvel created in also lots of diverse "replacement heroes" like Kamala, Miles and the ANAD Characters.
    But that's general a problem with New Characters, if they are completely original (or a replace an obscure one) sales are low, if they replace a popular character that usually creates a backlash, and they get only high sales as long as the original doesn't come back (so for about a year or two).
    Only way to avoid that is to spin off a popular support character (or a popular member of team) into his own book, but DC's big franchises have already so many popular characters that it is hard to add new ones.
    I don’t think replacement heroes are the best route to go because they will always be in the shadow of the original, and as you say, it starts a backlash if a character is replaced that tends to divide rather than unite the DC fanbase, which is not healthy. Furthermore it means fans of the other character whether be white, non white, or of a different gender, get frustrated because they bond with characters that not get their chance in the limelight.

    Both Guy Gardner & John Stewart have never really taken over the Green Lantern title, and John hasn’t had a spin off series in almost 30 years. He has to wait in the limelight while both Black Panther and Luke Cage can be front and center at any moment.

    Even the replacement hero exemplar “Wally West” in now in limbo because Barry Allen came back. Marvel doesn’t really have a long history of replacement characters because they’ve been top dog in sales.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    If Marvel was really about 'because fans demanded it' One More Day would be completely overturned and retconned instead of the halfway measures we've gotten so far.
    They're more receptive than DC is, and they're not shy about making minority characters like Miles Morales, T'Challa and Kamala Khan. DC has trouble making a safe bet like Jaime Reyes a big push.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    That is why I think that both DC and Marvel should push diverse heroes in comics even if they do not sell well, to ensure a wide range of diversity in comic books.
    But the question how many low selling books can they put out and how long should they keep them going?

    At the moment the question is anyway academic, in the current situation with Corvid-19, both DC and Marvel will probably have to focus on their big sellers. I don't think we will see much books focussing on new or more obscure characters in the in the next year.

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    They're more receptive than DC is, and they're not shy about making minority characters like Miles Morales, T'Challa and Kamala Khan. DC has trouble making a safe bet like Jaime Reyes a big push.
    You can't really compare that, T'Challa has been around forever and is a pretty established character at this point.

    DC tried to do something similar with Black Lightning back then, but he never really caught on, and then the "DC implosion" came.

    Miles Morales and Kamala Khan were both surprise success, so Marvel doubled down on them (and tired and failed to replicate that success with the other ANAD Characters), Jaime Reyes wasn't.

  10. #235
    Incredible Member The no face guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    But the question how many low selling books can they put out and how long should they keep them going?

    At the moment the question is anyway academic, in the current situation with Corvid-19, both DC and Marvel will probably have to focus on their big sellers. I don't think we will see much books focussing on new or more obscure characters in the in the next year.
    No this is true, COVID has pretty much wrecked things economically, I hear they're cancelling the Terrifics but i hope they keep it going because Mr. Terrific is one of my favourite JSA members. I would like to see him pushed more, I understand the Outsiders are selling decent, so that's one to keep going.

    As for how many and how long. I think it depends on the character as per example, as Black Lightning has his own tv series, they should renew his title so fans of the show have a comic to read, but it is not enough to just have a series out, as I would like to see more diverse writers hired at DC, so they have someone who feels as passionate about writing Black Lightning as much as Ta - Neshi Coats does for Black Panther.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    You can't really compare that, T'Challa has been around forever and is a pretty established character at this point.

    DC tried to do something similar with Black Lightning back then, but he never really caught on, and then the "DC implosion" came.

    Miles Morales and Kamala Khan were both surprise success, so Marvel doubled down on them (and tired and failed to replicate that success with the other ANAD Characters), Jaime Reyes wasn't.
    T'Challa's been around but it was only the last few years he was given a really big push. He'd have gotten a movie sooner but that was politics with Ike Permutter.

    DC's got the Black Lightning tv show but he was hardly as pushed as BP was. BP was in multiple Avengers cartoons as a re-occuring character/member, I don't think DC did anything like that as much with BL. He was sort of doing that in Young Justice, except he's lost in the shuffle among the enormous cast it has.

    Agreed. Jaime really should DC's equivalent to Miles or Kamala right now. They should giving him a cartoon or movie ASAP.

  12. #237
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    Because they keep giving him to writers incapable of telling a story that's not him crying about being a freak. It's no surprise people don't wanna be like him. Kids loved cartoon Cyborg because he was actually fun.
    Not writers, editors. Walker wanted to move beyond that stuff and the editor wouldn’t let him. Think it was the same guy who botched the New 52 Static launch, and ironically was the one black editor DC had.

  13. #238
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Not writers, editors. Walker wanted to move beyond that stuff and the editor wouldn’t let him. Think it was the same guy who botched the New 52 Static launch, and ironically was the one black editor DC had.
    Well, the New 52 marching orders were reportedly "DARK IS GOOD" so any levity at the cost of drama must have been nearly grounds for termination. Joivan Wade over on Doom Patrol has proven that charisma and levity to balance that drama are what Vic really needs to break through, but DC is really enamored with the idea of him being a very sad TI-84 and it's just such a waste of a great character.

  14. #239
    Incredible Member The no face guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    Because they keep giving him to writers incapable of telling a story that's not him crying about being a freak. It's no surprise people don't wanna be like him. Kids loved cartoon Cyborg because he was actually fun.
    This is true, he was entertaining in the cartoon, they need to find a writer who is passionate about writing him as his series wasn't to exciting, personally though, as far as superheroes of African decent go, I want to see more of Bronze Tiger, so underused, but yet so much potential.

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    You can't really compare that, T'Challa has been around forever and is a pretty established character at this point.

    DC tried to do something similar with Black Lightning back then, but he never really caught on, and then the "DC implosion" came.

    Miles Morales and Kamala Khan were both surprise success, so Marvel doubled down on them (and tired and failed to replicate that success with the other ANAD Characters), Jaime Reyes wasn't.
    DC always seemed afraid to actually push Black Lightning, the current version of him in the comics is incredibly watered down and bland, why does he need Batman to give him a power boost?

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