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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    DC always seemed afraid to actually push Black Lightning, the current version of him in the comics is incredibly watered down and bland,
    He has allways been bland imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    why does he need Batman to give him a power boost?
    Because Gambi isn't arround (can't really comment on that I haven't read the last issues of Outsiders)

  2. #242
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    DC always seemed afraid to actually push Black Lightning, the current version of him in the comics is incredibly watered down and bland, why does he need Batman to give him a power boost?
    I *think* Isabella has a deal that gives him greater say over how BL is used, but he sure hates how Hill uses him in Batman & The Outsiders so I’m sure he would stop that if he could. I find Isabella’s take on BL to be pretty dull in and of itself these days though, his mini a while back was a slog. BL in the TV show has the benefit of being written by black writers whereas DC’s writing lineup is mostly white. Not to say every black writer would do a better job, Coates on BP has been a very dull slog for me, so it’s never guaranteed.
    Last edited by Vordan; 07-09-2020 at 07:18 AM.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    T'Challa's been around but it was only the last few years he was given a really big push. He'd have gotten a movie sooner but that was politics with Ike Permutter.

    DC's got the Black Lightning tv show but he was hardly as pushed as BP was. BP was in multiple Avengers cartoons as a re-occuring character/member, I don't think DC did anything like that as much with BL. He was sort of doing that in Young Justice, except he's lost in the shuffle among the enormous cast it has.

    Agreed. Jaime really should DC's equivalent to Miles or Kamala right now. They should giving him a cartoon or movie ASAP.
    Black Lightning had the rights issues with Tony Isabella for a while. And even before the show, he'd appeared in at least three DC animated projects.

  4. #244
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    The originals coming back was ALWAYS expected. Because it happened every other time with those guys.

    The main crybabies were folks who don't read comics or hated seeing certain types of characters get promoted.

    Punisher and Doom called themselves Ironman and War Machine. To ZERO backlash.

    Riri did not call herself Ironman. Kamala took over a name that was NOT active. Folks screamed the world was ending.

    Aside from Bruce Banner-everyone else was around in some form. And even with them back-we still get thread after thread BEGGING for POC to be back in the background.
    I think Marvel was being disingenuous with fans of both the originals and fans of the legacy characters with how they were handling the mantle changes, getting people invested in heroes in new identities and prominence with the expectation that it would stick to a degree that obviously did not happen.

    Riri didn't take the name Iron Man, but she took over his book, and even if she didn't have the name it was practically the same thing in terms of execution. And I remember people who were baffled by the whole "Doom as Iron Man" thing when that was announced.

    Some of the classics were still around but not in a state where a lot of their fans would be satisfied.

  5. #245
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think Marvel was being disingenuous with fans of both the originals and fans of the legacy characters with how they were handling the mantle changes, getting people invested in heroes in new identities and prominence with the expectation that it would stick to a degree that obviously did not happen.

    Riri didn't take the name Iron Man, but she took over his book, and even if she didn't have the name it was practically the same thing in terms of execution. And I remember people who were baffled by the whole "Doom as Iron Man" thing when that was announced.

    Some of the classics were still around but not in a state where a lot of their fans would be satisfied.
    Yes, the thing with Doom and Punisher is very different from the Riri situation. Doom's Iron Man fase happened on a different book, more similar to the New Super-Man than to the Ironheart situation. In the Punisher case is even more different, it was a Frank Castle story, from the very begining it was clear that it would be just a couple arcs on the Punisher own book, he wasn't taking over someone elses, actually in this case, it wasn't a less known character using a more famous tittle to get popularity, because the Punisher is way more popular than War Machine.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Walker and Semper Jr can and have written better than that. The issue was the editor kept that man versus machine nonsense going on.

    It's part of the reason Walker left the book-he tried changing Cyborg's look as well and got tired of the editor.




    The originals coming back was ALWAYS expected. Because it happened every other time with those guys.

    The main crybabies were folks who don't read comics or hated seeing certain types of characters get promoted.

    Punisher and Doom called themselves Ironman and War Machine. To ZERO backlash.

    Riri did not call herself Ironman. Kamala took over a name that was NOT active. Folks screamed the world was ending.

    Aside from Bruce Banner-everyone else was around in some form. And even with them back-we still get thread after thread BEGGING for POC to be back in the background.
    And even Bruce Banner was around as the Maestro at the time.

  7. #247
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    And even Bruce Banner was around as the Maestro at the time.
    Is that better or worse then HydraCap?

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    Yes, the thing with Doom and Punisher is very different from the Riri situation. Doom's Iron Man fase happened on a different book, more similar to the New Super-Man than to the Ironheart situation. In the Punisher case is even more different, it was a Frank Castle story, from the very begining it was clear that it would be just a couple arcs on the Punisher own book, he wasn't taking over someone elses, actually in this case, it wasn't a less known character using a more famous tittle to get popularity, because the Punisher is way more popular than War Machine.
    It's a little different but I think it's very hypocritical to get mad at Riri and not the other 2, Doom's book was still called Iron Man and Tony wasn't even in that one iirc. Frank also took on a whole team worth of Avengers and came out on top in a suit he barely even knew how to pilot. If Riri did that there would've been an online ragefest and Youtube videos burning comics. Personally I think it's all ridiculous but those characters deserved at-least a fraction of the hate Riri got but they received nada.
    Reading list: Far Sector (DC), Marauders (Marvel), X-Force (Marvel), X-Men (Marvel), Miles Morales: Spider-Man (Marvel), Venom (Marvel), My Hero Academia (VIZ), Killadelphia (Image), Bitter Root (Image), Black Hammer: Age of Doom (Darkhorse)

  9. #249
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think Marvel was being disingenuous with fans of both the originals and fans of the legacy characters with how they were handling the mantle changes, getting people invested in heroes in new identities and prominence with the expectation that it would stick to a degree that obviously did not happen.

    Riri didn't take the name Iron Man, but she took over his book, and even if she didn't have the name it was practically the same thing in terms of execution. And I remember people who were baffled by the whole "Doom as Iron Man" thing when that was announced.

    Some of the classics were still around but not in a state where a lot of their fans would be satisfied.
    I remember it a lot more than 'baffled'. people WERE upset that Doom was taking over as iron man. Some people were just happy he was getting his own book.... but the idea that DOOM would ever deign to call himself 'iron man'... or to use someone else's tech or designs?!? It was VASTLY out of character for him and he didn't get a pass. His only saving grace was just coming off Secret Wars III and what is and isn't in character was KIND of in flux... Classic Doom would NEVER do such a thing, but new Doom?? It was still kind of a crap move, but... maybe?!?

    It still wasn't as badly out of character as someone who went on his 'Armor Wars' to stop his tech from being used by others and who started the whole Civil War to stop untrained people from having powers suddenly tossing the keys to the kingdom to a teenager he just met with a 'Just be sure to fill up the tank when you get back' mentality. It's just not something Tony would EVER do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Is that better or worse then HydraCap?
    Better.

    At his Core, Banner has always been 'the monster' The uncontrollable rage beast that COULD kill us all if he ever loses control. Where as Cap always held that spot on the pedastal of being 'the perfect hero'.

    Having Banner slip from 'focusing his rage beast in a heroic direction'.... to 'not' isn't nearly the big a fall from grace that hydracap was. Heck, I'm not even sure which is a bigger more evil threat. Maestro or Immortal Hulk.... and people love THAT book.

  10. #250
    Extraordinary Member Robotman's Avatar
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    You can probably trace this back to the Silver Age. The DC brass was still lead by a bunch of very old school guys. Meanwhile, Kirby and Lee were breaking new ground and the Marvel PTB weren't afraid to take some risks. There was an article in the Hollywood Reporter when the Black Panther movie came out, where they interviewed Jack Kirby's son Neal. They and asked him about the creation of the character:

    "Neal, a high school senior when Black Panther first appeared in Fantastic Four No. 52 in summer 1966, remembers his father talking to him about introducing the character.

    "I recall during the winter or early spring he asked me what I would think of a black superhero in the comics. Of course he was very much for it, as we all were at the time," Kirby says. "My father was a very social liberal person. He would have been the Bernie Sanders of his day. He very much believed in social justice and equality, so he honestly thought it was time. Why shouldn't African-Americans have their own superhero?"


    Kirby and Lee got a lot of hate mail, but Kirby was probably used to it as he received threats from the American Nazi party when he made Captain America punch Hitler in the face.

    A character like Black Panther could never have happened at DC in the Silver Age. Even in the late 70s they were still weary about introducing black superheroes. Tony Isabella had to talk DC out of the absolutely horrible Brown Bomber idea (look it up) and fight to get Black Lightning made. So yeah, DC was late to the party and it's hurt them in the diversity department ever since. By the time Black Lightning was published, Marvel already had T'Challa, Luke Cage, Blade, and Storm.

    DC also doesn't have very many POC superheroes who aren't an offshoot of a white hero. That is probably a big reason why Cyborg was chosen for the Justice League. Blue Beetle is a legacy but at least Jaime Reyes has a completely different look and power set from Ted Kord.

    Characters like Vibe, Vixen, Steel, and Blue Beetle aren't going to be able to maintain a solo monthly series, but it's freaking ridiculous that DC doesn't at least have them on a team or as a regular in another book.
    Last edited by Robotman; 07-09-2020 at 07:52 PM.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    Characters like Vibe, Vixen, Steel, and Blue Beetle aren't going to be able to maintain a solo monthly series, but it's freaking ridiculous that DC doesn't at least have them on a team or as a regular in another book.
    Like I said YJ and TT have many members:

    YJ has:
    Miguel
    Teen Lantern
    Jackson
    Jinny Hex
    Naomi

    TT:
    Damian
    Djinn
    Roundhouse
    Wallace
    Crush
    Emiko

    Its possible that Static will also join YJ in future.
    Nubia gets back in a Comic

    Iris and Jai West are back now

    Steel (female version) was in Titans..

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    Characters like Vibe, Vixen, Steel, and Blue Beetle aren't going to be able to maintain a solo monthly series, but it's freaking ridiculous that DC doesn't at least have them on a team or as a regular in another book.
    Steel held onde for 5 years, Jaime did it for 3 and Cass did it for 7.

    Aside from Jaime the other two never got another solo shot.

    DC also doesn't have very many POC superheroes who aren't an offshoot of a white hero.
    Actually they have quite a few. I am putting something together for an idea I posted for the Vixen thread and needed some characters. I decided to D-Z lister.

    I am finding a bunch. Who could have been dusted off and invested in. Enough to give Cyborg a diverse rogue gallery.

    Remember Squirrel Girl was on the scrap heap until Great Lake Avengers and her OGN.
    Rocket Raccoon until GOTG.
    John Stewart was there too. Then came Justice League cartoon.
    Luke Cage was there TWICE and then came Bendis and Jessica Jones.


    I remember it a lot more than 'baffled'. people WERE upset that Doom was taking over as iron man. Some people were just happy he was getting his own book.... but the idea that DOOM would ever deign to call himself 'iron man'... or to use someone else's tech or designs?!? It was VASTLY out of character for him and he didn't get a pass. His only saving grace was just coming off Secret Wars III and what is and isn't in character was KIND of in flux... Classic Doom would NEVER do such a thing, but new Doom?? It was still kind of a crap move, but... maybe?!?
    Here is the thing folks forget-the amount and type of rage varied when it came to some versus others.

    Those fanboys were not sending death threats to folks over Doom Iron Man nor were stores refusing to NOT sell the book nor were there petitions to get someone fired.

    Being upset Doom doing something so out of character is FINE.

    Wondering why Rhodey's niece was not used is FINE.

    Even wondering why Tony would give Riri the key to the kingdom after JUST meeting her is FINE. These are legit concerns.

    Throwing a FIT a black girl EXISTS is another. Calling Bendis's daughters derogatory names is another thing going too far. That is the behavior I speak of.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    Like I said YJ and TT have many members:

    YJ has:
    Miguel
    Teen Lantern
    Jackson
    Jinny Hex
    Naomi

    TT:
    Damian
    Djinn
    Roundhouse
    Wallace
    Crush
    Emiko

    Its possible that Static will also join YJ in future.
    Nubia gets back in a Comic

    Iris and Jai West are back now

    Steel (female version) was in Titans..
    I think Djinn left the Teen Titans.

    Nubia has a OGN coming.

    Steel was in Titans and was WASTED and where is she now.

    And everything still boils down to somone being ABLE to use them and if you ask many writers that has been the issue with many POC. Can't use them.

  14. #254
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    Steel should definitely be in more titles
    Reading list: Far Sector (DC), Marauders (Marvel), X-Force (Marvel), X-Men (Marvel), Miles Morales: Spider-Man (Marvel), Venom (Marvel), My Hero Academia (VIZ), Killadelphia (Image), Bitter Root (Image), Black Hammer: Age of Doom (Darkhorse)

  15. #255
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Here is the thing folks forget-the amount and type of rage varied when it came to some versus others.

    Those fanboys were not sending death threats to folks over Doom Iron Man nor were stores refusing to NOT sell the book nor were there petitions to get someone fired.

    Being upset Doom doing something so out of character is FINE.

    Wondering why Rhodey's niece was not used is FINE.

    Even wondering why Tony would give Riri the key to the kingdom after JUST meeting her is FINE. These are legit concerns.

    Throwing a FIT a black girl EXISTS is another. Calling Bendis's daughters derogatory names is another thing going too far. That is the behavior I speak of.
    I agree that sucks.

    What i don't like is when all the 'haters' get thrown together. I can't stand the concept of Riri because

    1) She's too young to be catapulted to the front of the genius line. Make her smart.. but at her age, she should never automatically be anywhere near able to reverse engineer the most sophisticated technology in the world.. which has specific countermeasures SPECIFICALLY to prevent that. Heck, I've never really seen Rhodey show that kind of ingenuity and he's flown those armors for years... The 'instant genius' trope just irks me. Same complaint i have with Moon girl and Valeria Richards. That's just weak storytelling.

    2) Tony would never ever ever EVER do anything like that. I think I counted it up one time and there was over 4 years and 50 issues between Rhodey joining the cast, and him being allowed to wear the armor. His protectiveness of his tech is his #1 defining trait.

    Race and gender have zero to do with my hatred for Riri. They could have given the book to Pepper, to Rhodey's niece, Even to Suri if Black Panther and Tony are currently tight.... but random strangers you just meet... just Bad.

    HECK... Riri could have STOLEN the tech and just claimed the book like Doom did. That at least wouldn't be out of character for Tony.


    As for death threats.... that sucks on every level. They're just comic books people need to get over themselves. That said, don't assume all death threats are because 'a black girl exists'. Some might be, there are some crappy people out there.... but I remember when Hal Jordan was replaced by Kyle and the whole H.E.A.T. had some raging passion going on too. Ron Marz reported a LOT of hate mail and calls to have him fired and i even believe a few death threats and there was no racial issue there at all. Just horribly misguided passion for a fictional character.

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