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  1. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I would claim that the last push was actually New age of Heroes, which also didn't sell.

    And there was also the Vertigo relaunch, which was also a massive flop.
    New Age didn't deserve to flop like it did, there were some good books in that line.
    Reading list: Far Sector (DC), Marauders (Marvel), X-Force (Marvel), X-Men (Marvel), Miles Morales: Spider-Man (Marvel), Venom (Marvel), My Hero Academia (VIZ), Killadelphia (Image), Bitter Root (Image), Black Hammer: Age of Doom (Darkhorse)

  2. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    it's telling of DC that their greatest hope of non-white representation is Static, a character that's not even a DC character. the fact that we still HAVE to inflate DC's stats when it comes to diversity with Milestone characters is depressing.
    This is exactly why I started looking elsewhere, we shouldn't be having these discussions about 50+ year old characters.
    Reading list: Far Sector (DC), Marauders (Marvel), X-Force (Marvel), X-Men (Marvel), Miles Morales: Spider-Man (Marvel), Venom (Marvel), My Hero Academia (VIZ), Killadelphia (Image), Bitter Root (Image), Black Hammer: Age of Doom (Darkhorse)

  3. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    This argument needs to be thrown away, the MCU was built on the backs of Marvel's scrap characters. DC is not interesting in developing their characters of color in any significant way anytime soon, they're constantly being criticized that their heroes of color are treated better in wider media than on the page even today. we will never get characters of color leading on the DC big screen if we're waiting for the one that "has the presence" in the DC comics landscape. I mean Mr. Terrific is having his most successful and acclaimed run ever (which is obviously wrapping up soon because No Nice Things), why not a Mr. Terrific movie that leads into a Terrifics movie? Why not take these characters and make them into what DC won't do on the page? who knows, if Guardians of the Galaxy can change the course of those characters on the page, maybe that strategy will lead to DC getting their shit together with their heroes of color.
    Compared to Guardians none of the characters I’ve mentioned have had a successful solo run and outside of animated depictions their live action depictions have been poorly received. WB doesn’t pursue these types of characters because there’s a large chance they’ll fail.

  4. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr HardKnocks View Post
    Compared to Guardians none of the characters I’ve mentioned have had a successful solo run and outside of animated depictions their live action depictions have been poorly received. WB doesn’t pursue these types of characters because there’s a large chance they’ll fail.
    Nothing is safe in Hollywood, they've failed Superman for years. C-list characters don't become A-listers by sitting on the shelf, work needs to be put in, they need to be respected and they need WB's proper backing to do it. Marvel believe in Guardians, WB won't do that for Static.

  5. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Nothing is safe in Hollywood, they've failed Superman for years. C-list characters don't become A-listers by sitting on the shelf, work needs to be put in, they need to be respected and they need WB's proper backing to do it. Marvel believe in Guardians, WB won't do that for Static.
    Exactly, they’ve never properly executed the promotion and development of their characters, unlike DC, Marvel will take risk on lesser known characters which is why almost every character they have now is an assured financial success. Despite the controversy surrounding Brie Larson and the hopes of the films failure, Captain Marvel still was a billion dollar film simply being associated with the Marvel brand. Ant Man may not have been as financially successful but it’s still enough that it’s about to have a trilogy.

  6. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    There is a push to get young girls (especially of color) into STEM (Science and engineering) programs.

    That is part of the reason you see more science interested girls in more shows and projects.


    Now from a BUSINESS stand point-how do you assure you get your books sales (even if it's from libraries and schools and PARENTS)-tackle a subject that folks want to make interesting to a group.

    Do you know how much mileage I could get out of Riri, Moon Girl, Wasp & Shuri at a school? TONS.

    How much science knowledge and name dropping I could do in those books and kids would NEVER notice.


    Same could be done with Natasha Irons.

    If DC was to go an educational/super hero route they could.

    Black Lightning could be used to give a lesson about how the school system works so we can stop having fake woke folks make up crap to bash schools.
    Red Lion could tell you about Africa that is real unlike Wakanda.
    Jessica Cruz about PTS

    Since mainstream Dc doesn't want to use them.
    I get that, it's just a weird contrast that all the prominent super geniuses are either super-smart adult males and super-smart teen females. It's almost like the science bug skipped a generation.

  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I get that, it's just a weird contrast that all the prominent super geniuses are either super-smart adult males and super-smart teen females. It's almost like the science bug skipped a generation.
    Not really. Amadeus Cho is a male genius of the younger generation.
    Last edited by Will Evans; 07-11-2020 at 09:59 PM.

  8. #293
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    Yeah, this tracks as easy to determine for me. Marvel came around the Silver Age in 1960, and while it was probably a good 9 years away from the Civil Rights Movements in the late sixties, Stan and Jack and the rest were certainly going to head in that direction once it came, and their premiere characters where still only TEN YEARS OLD when more diverse characters, even at the slow start they did begin getting introduced, started to enter the picture (that said, Black Panther, early draft original form, debuted in what, 65? pretty early on). So while Marvel had a pretty whitey-white solid core of O.G. Early Sixties characters, it wasn't the deepest bench ever and allowed for plenty of new blood to come in and take up a big chunk of the dynamic once they did.

    DC's characters launched in the 1940s. They were around and popular for THIRTY YEARS before the Civil Rights Movement really took off. That's a LOT of characters that became beloved and A-List sellers before anyone moved on social change. For the most part I'd say that, excusing any of the parlance of the times or context of the times, writers tended to be pretty progressive. But there's still just a Thirty-Year Bench of characters to use that people want to see before you even get to introducing any black, asian, latino or otherwise characters. A lot of their Golden Age characters are straight up grandfathered in - in particular Batman, Superman, so forth. And Silver Age revamps like Flash and GL are still white guys for another 10+ years until John Stewart comes into the picture, which of course, Denny O'Neil. When you look at who the big number generators still are for DC ... it's characters from 1960 and PRIOR. It's Batman, Joker, his A-List are all Golden Age excepting only Ivy, Harley and Bane, really. Flash's core comes from the 60s themselves, as does Superman's - Superman is a special case - several of his Golden Age stuff survives into A-List, but obviously Otto Binder's titanic contributions in the late 50s and early 60s are the real fulcrum on which Superman pivots. Green Lantern's stuff is all early 60s Fox. Justice League is Early 60s.

    Now! That being said ... I think this is an issue that requires nuance. Because while it might be the exception and the 1 in 100 exception, DC did have Wonder Woman. And Golden Age Wonder Woman is effing advanced. Even now. Advanced enough that there's decades-long spans where basic ass writers don't know what to do with her. Her back-log and chronological contributions are also nuanced. Her make-up is as much a mix of Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Ideas as anything. There's as much Golden Age Marston in Modern WW as there is Bronze Age Perez and startlingly LESS Silver Age. I'm entirely not sure what that says about the 50s and early 60s, but I could probably guess, since it tracks somewhat with women in the workplace in WWII 1940s shifting or getting told to shift back into the happy 1950s housewife bullshit motif until proper late 60s Feminism smashed back into Wonder Woman. (I'm curious to see if WandaVision tackles any of that, actually.)

    But I ultimately think it comes down to that. Stiff competition with the grandfathered in 40s characters. Look, I'll read anything and love good characters, but it's hard not to say that there's not a prevailing interest in Batman and Superman compared to late-comers from the late-60s or early 70s like Bumblebee, Mal Duncan or Black Lightning. Ironically in multiple media and good modern comics, but also some cutting edge 60s and 70s comics, Black Manta of all characters proved to be energized and unique. He's obviously a horrible person but nowadays we have the fun dynamic of Aqualad to balance that good/evil thing out. But it's relevant that he's the first Black Super-Villain. And he's like ... a proper villain. Barely even sympathetic. Joker-level villain. He wasn't in the Sixties, though. Manta started masked and essentially faceless for his first several appearances, and the retcon that he's black (and vile enough to use his blackness to manipulate other black men into being henchmen) came in the 70s. Ultimately I feel like this original incarnation of the character has sort of shifted into something more ... well I want to say respectable, but I don't mean ethical. Black Manta is very, very mercenary and very pragmatic and ruthless. Efficient, cold and calculating. It has less to do with being some kind of racially motivated individual and more to do with him just being very, very competent. Which makes for a good nemesis to be sure. Somewhere in the universe a very, very, very White Hero has a black nemesis and it has absolutely zero to do with Aquaman being a blond-haired blue-eyed Irish-Merman and Manta being black. It's ... accidentally color-blind. Which feels progressive for the 70s, frankly, and I think we can respect and easily transition into being a more unique Modern Incarnation, which they seem to have done.

    Quick aside though - I think Mal Duncan is the MOST underserved character in the entire DC pantheon of characters. I'm vastly interested not just in his personality but in the character phases he's gone through as part of an incorporated and cohesive character. Whether you want to call him Guardian or Herald ... either way, his name is basically a Newspaper. That dude should be the DCU's Spider-Man. And an association with the Guardian (cloning!) and Herald (Christianity!) feels like an insanely relevant story beat to explore.

    I went with black characters because they have launched earlier than other representative groups. I also think Marvel didn't fall into the Catch-22 of diversified Legacy Characters. They started unique IPs and didn't replace fan-favorites with newcomers until more recently when it's trendy and more of a cliche. Not that these characters always take off, and it's still tough competition when you've got like 10 Bat-Family books to compete with. Five less Bat-Family books could mean another Blue Beetle (admittedly, a Legacy) or another something. The ironic flip of course is that, contrary, you through Batman in the title because of the historical Outsiders ... and you've got a book that features a black man, a black kid, a japanese woman, a half-chinese girl, vaguely middle-eastern/asian Ra's al Ghul. Even back in the day when the Outsiders were a fair bit "whiter" you had Geo-Force repping Eastern Europeans at least. I mean mix it up a bit, yeah?

    So yeah, long story short ... DC had a huge lead, a head-wind or grandfathered in Popular Characters before they got around to introducing minority characters so even their classics have a 30 year very pale set of heroes and villains to have to stand out from. Marvel's diversification came within the first decade of Marvel Comics, so while there were many heroes and villains, they had room to breath and grow and get popular. And then adding to that, actual financial sales, popularity, what people were buying, and a slight tradition bent toward their classic characters meant DC couldn't help but continue to focus on their classics. Because DC is a company, and profits keep artists and writers paid and companies operational. A mix between an Early-20th Century head-wind of IP with a strong capitalistic focus. Not totally strict, but definitely not loose enough for some of us more progressive fans.

    And it's important to note that 1940s, or rather, Late 30s! characters, spawned from a different literary tradition. An admittedly flawed and rather Eurocentric one to be sure, but something like Batman is an evolution of Gothic Literature from the latter half of the 19th Century fused with the early-20th Century's fixation on outlaw/crime noir/vigilantism/detective fiction. It's spun out of Westerns as well (failed law systems and vigilante justice). It's about the Industrial Revolution, the FEAR of female empowerment (hence, the femme fatale archetype) and basically about what manly men do in a world where mannishness is no longer required just for survival. Batman is the offspring of your Wildes and Stokers and whoever elses of the day. It's Gothic, Romance, or Noir. Those aren't exclusively white concepts by any means, but that's where that guy and a lot of the other Golden Age vigilantes sprang from.

    Superman's quite a bit different. Superman's always had the immigrant story but more than that the social crusader story baked into his DNA. He's an almost purely Depression-Era Superhero. Also important concept and obviously American-Jewish in everything but name. And Wonder Woman of course the sexual liberation the last 100 years. So I'm not like qualifying it or anything, I think DC and everyone else can certainly step it up in the representation department, especially getting good diverse writers to create good new concepts and not just also-rans or "not the original" would-be legacies. I do think what characters from the Golden Age represent, white as hell as they are (mostly secretly Jewish or Irish working-class, except Batman of course), are still important, relevant things to explore in our society. The 1940s, 80 years or not, were only three blinks ago in human society standards and Industrial Revolution is still fresh and new. Depressions are still rolling in. Shitty corrupt politicians still plague us. Corrupt cops and broken citiescover our continents. Powerful women are still run down for the sake of male egos who can't compete. And f*ck, white kids still have problems and need representation, too. There's plenty of reasons for a good few of the classics to stay in circulation, sharing the shelves.

    But don't run another Sidekick or Legacy when you can do something new. Or better ... grab ahold of vintage, classic DC minority character and go all out epic on it. Seriously ... MAL DUNCAN. Or CYBORG. I could pitch you a dozen ideas for each that would hold my attention more than the next WildStorm Revival bullshit campaign.
    Last edited by K. Jones; 07-11-2020 at 11:08 PM.
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  9. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    Yeah, this tracks as easy to determine for me. Marvel came around the Silver Age in 1960, and while it was probably a good 9 years away from the Civil Rights Movements in the late sixties, Stan and Jack and the rest were certainly going to head in that direction once it came, and their premiere characters where still only TEN YEARS OLD when more diverse characters, even at the slow start they did begin getting introduced, started to enter the picture (that said, Black Panther, early draft original form, debuted in what, 65? pretty early on). So while Marvel had a pretty whitey-white solid core of O.G. Early Sixties characters, it wasn't the deepest bench ever and allowed for plenty of new blood to come in and take up a big chunk of the dynamic once they did.

    DC's characters launched in the 1940s. They were around and popular for THIRTY YEARS before the Civil Rights Movement really took off. That's a LOT of characters that became beloved and A-List sellers before anyone moved on social change. For the most part I'd say that, excusing any of the parlance of the times or context of the times, writers tended to be pretty progressive. But there's still just a Thirty-Year Bench of characters to use that people want to see before you even get to introducing any black, asian, latino or otherwise characters. A lot of their Golden Age characters are straight up grandfathered in - in particular Batman, Superman, so forth. And Silver Age revamps like Flash and GL are still white guys for another 10+ years until John Stewart comes into the picture, which of course, Denny O'Neil. When you look at who the big number generators still are for DC ... it's characters from 1960 and PRIOR. It's Batman, Joker, his A-List are all Golden Age excepting only Ivy, Harley and Bane, really. Flash's core comes from the 60s themselves, as does Superman's - Superman is a special case - several of his Golden Age stuff survives into A-List, but obviously Otto Binder's titanic contributions in the late 50s and early 60s are the real fulcrum on which Superman pivots. Green Lantern's stuff is all early 60s Fox. Justice League is Early 60s.

    Now! That being said ... I think this is an issue that requires nuance. Because while it might be the exception and the 1 in 100 exception, DC did have Wonder Woman. And Golden Age Wonder Woman is effing advanced. Even now. Advanced enough that there's decades-long spans where basic ass writers don't know what to do with her. Her back-log and chronological contributions are also nuanced. Her make-up is as much a mix of Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Ideas as anything. There's as much Golden Age Marston in Modern WW as there is Bronze Age Perez and startlingly LESS Silver Age. I'm entirely not sure what that says about the 50s and early 60s, but I could probably guess, since it tracks somewhat with women in the workplace in WWII 1940s shifting or getting told to shift back into the happy 1950s housewife bullshit motif until proper late 60s Feminism smashed back into Wonder Woman. (I'm curious to see if WandaVision tackles any of that, actually.)

    But I ultimately think it comes down to that. Stiff competition with the grandfathered in 40s characters. Look, I'll read anything and love good characters, but it's hard not to say that there's not a prevailing interest in Batman and Superman compared to late-comers from the late-60s or early 70s like Bumblebee, Mal Duncan or Black Lightning. Ironically in multiple media and good modern comics, but also some cutting edge 60s and 70s comics, Black Manta of all characters proved to be energized and unique. He's obviously a horrible person but nowadays we have the fun dynamic of Aqualad to balance that good/evil thing out. But it's relevant that he's the first Black Super-Villain. And he's like ... a proper villain. Barely even sympathetic. Joker-level villain. He wasn't in the Sixties, though. Manta started masked and essentially faceless for his first several appearances, and the retcon that he's black (and vile enough to use his blackness to manipulate other black men into being henchmen) came in the 70s. Ultimately I feel like this original incarnation of the character has sort of shifted into something more ... well I want to say respectable, but I don't mean ethical. Black Manta is very, very mercenary and very pragmatic and ruthless. Efficient, cold and calculating. It has less to do with being some kind of racially motivated individual and more to do with him just being very, very competent. Which makes for a good nemesis to be sure. Somewhere in the universe a very, very, very White Hero has a black nemesis and it has absolutely zero to do with Aquaman being a blond-haired blue-eyed Irish-Merman and Manta being black. It's ... accidentally color-blind. Which feels progressive for the 70s, frankly, and I think we can respect and easily transition into being a more unique Modern Incarnation, which they seem to have done.



    I went with black characters because they have launched earlier than other representative groups. I also think Marvel didn't fall into the Catch-22 of diversified Legacy Characters. They started unique IPs and didn't replace fan-favorites with newcomers until more recently when it's trendy and more of a cliche. Not that these characters always take off, and it's still tough competition when you've got like 10 Bat-Family books to compete with. Five less Bat-Family books could mean another Blue Beetle (admittedly, a Legacy) or another something. The ironic flip of course is that, contrary, you through Batman in the title because of the historical Outsiders ... and you've got a book that features a black man, a black kid, a japanese woman, a half-chinese girl, vaguely middle-eastern/asian Ra's al Ghul. Even back in the day when the Outsiders were a fair bit "whiter" you had Geo-Force repping Eastern Europeans at least. I mean mix it up a bit, yeah?

    So yeah, long story short ... DC had a huge lead, a head-wind or grandfathered in Popular Characters before they got around to introducing minority characters so even their classics have a 30 year very pale set of heroes and villains to have to stand out from. Marvel's diversification came within the first decade of Marvel Comics, so while there were many heroes and villains, they had room to breath and grow and get popular. And then adding to that, actual financial sales, popularity, what people were buying, and a slight tradition bent toward their classic characters meant DC couldn't help but continue to focus on their classics. Because DC is a company, and profits keep artists and writers paid and companies operational. A mix between an Early-20th Century head-wind of IP with a strong capitalistic focus. Not totally strict, but definitely not loose enough for some of us more progressive fans.

    And it's important to note that 1940s, or rather, Late 30s! characters, spawned from a different literary tradition. An admittedly flawed and rather Eurocentric one to be sure, but something like Batman is an evolution of Gothic Literature from the latter half of the 19th Century fused with the early-20th Century's fixation on outlaw/crime noir/vigilantism/detective fiction. It's spun out of Westerns as well (failed law systems and vigilante justice). It's about the Industrial Revolution, the FEAR of female empowerment (hence, the femme fatale archetype) and basically about what manly men do in a world where mannishness is no longer required just for survival. Batman is the offspring of your Wildes and Stokers and whoever elses of the day. It's Gothic, Romance, or Noir. Those aren't exclusively white concepts by any means, but that's where that guy and a lot of the other Golden Age vigilantes sprang from.


    But don't run another Sidekick or Legacy when you can do something new. Or better ... grab ahold of vintage, classic DC minority character and go all out epic on it. Seriously ... MAL DUNCAN. Or CYBORG. I could pitch you a dozen ideas for each that would hold my attention more than the next WildStorm Revival bullshit campaign.
    Curious. When do you consider the Bronze Age to have started and ended?

    While Marvel had the early Black Panther like you mentioned, DC was ahead of the curb with females like Wonder Woman. And Marvel didn’t have a steady solo female character for a long time (especially one that wasn’t an offshoot).

    It wasn’t until recently they decided Captain Marvel should be the flagship female. And went through pains to make sure the Captain marvel mythos now revolves around Carol.

    That’s why it’s not too late for DC to hype up and use a person of color as a main in their franchises or other women as well. But look at Black Lightning. Jefferson Pierce has a show for him along with his daughters. (Who barely interacted in the comics).
    DC should used his family more in the comics.

    A Blue Beetle franchise could revolve around Jaime dealing with it’s legacy and also the Reach.

    A Firestorm franchise could deal with both Jason and Ronnie.

  10. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr HardKnocks View Post
    They’ve yet to respond back with films, in regards to Black Panther,
    I think they first need to find a response to Avengers ...

    When it comes to Black Panther I doubt that DC can replicate the hype around that movie, and I'm not even sure if Marvel can do that with the sequel. Black Panther was a big deal because it was the first Black lead Movie in the MCU, but only one movie can be the first, and DCEU is simply not as big and popular as the MCU.
    I'm not even sure if they are even continuing with a shared cinematic universe for DC (at least in a form where you have a strong connection between the different movies).

  11. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    Not really. Amadeus Cho is a male genius of the younger generation.
    And he's pretty much the only young teen genius.

  12. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    And he's pretty much the only young teen genius.
    There’s also Prodigy from X-men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I get that, it's just a weird contrast that all the prominent super geniuses are either super-smart adult males and super-smart teen females. It's almost like the science bug skipped a generation.
    I forgot all about Cho Hulk. ANd LOL his book does very well on Amazon especially for teens.


    That’s why it’s not too late for DC to hype up and use a person of color as a main in their franchises or other women as well.
    True but is DC willing to do what Marvel did?

    Marvel took a TON of crap from not only store owners but that OTHER part of the fandom lead by a former DC employee and entitlement fans.

    Who will cry bloody murder that that POC is being SHOVED down their throats.

    That has been DC's issue they cave in way too much. We saw it with McDuffie's JLA run. It sold and they still removed him and he planned that book out to issue 50.

    Moon Knight and Carol have sniffed how many volumes??? Carol has done it about 5 times since 2013 and in her defense it was more due to what Marvel was doing overall with everybody versus actual sales.


    So who would that be?? We have already had some store be PUBLIC in not wanting Black Lightning or Cyborg books. Toxic behavior to black female lead books not named Naomi or Jo.

    Green Lantern is held hostage by one person despite others proving it could hold up to 10 books for a time.

    Jason as Firestorm is gone thanks to Doomsday Clock & Gerry Conway.

    Jaime... He would solve the teen issue but I still need an adult.

    Michael Holt-he would have to be invested quickly before Netflix and Image's Prodigy becomes a show. Be that book is pretty much Michael minus inventing stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    There’s also Prodigy from X-men.
    Who lost out on a job to work for Tony Stark to Antman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    There’s also Prodigy from X-men.
    Probably explains why he doesn't get the same promotion...
    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    I forgot all about Cho Hulk. ANd LOL his book does very well on Amazon especially for teens.
    He doesn't seem to get promoted as hard as the girl geniuses. I know he's got his own Asian Superhero team and they keep throwing him into Spider-Man cartoons for some reason, but where's his Marvel Rising special and novels?

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