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  1. #1
    Incredible Member Samm's Avatar
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    Default Why are DC's minority character's lagging behind Marvel's?

    DC
    Green Lanterns #28 -- 30,024
    Green Lanterns #29 -- 29,451
    Bane Conquest #4 -- 17,615
    New Super-Man #14 -- 12,339
    Blue Beetle #12 -- 11,574
    Cyborg #15 -- 10,949

    Marvel
    Captain America #25 -- 40,428
    Spider-Man #19 -- 30,387
    Black Panther #17 -- 25,609
    Totally Awesome Hill #22 -- 24,995
    Infamous Iron-Man #11 -- 24,676
    Ms Marvels #21 -- 17,010
    Luke Cage #4 -- 12,330
    America #6 -- 9,548
    Moon Girl #22 --7,466

    So recently I got into a debate on social media about DC and Marvel's treatment of their minority characters. Somewhere along the way some fans started to claim that DC did diversity right while Marvel' s way felt more like an agenda or fulfilling a quota so to speak. Others felt Marvel's approach was correct and more successful. That got me curious to see which claim had more merit. To my surprise the second claim can actually be backed up by factual sales instead of ones opinion.

    I listed the comic sales for the month of August above. As you can see, Marvel's roster of minority character's is in a much healthier position than their DC counterpart. Now of course there are exceptions, Green Lanterns is in a healthy position whereas Luke Cage, America and Moon Girl definitely aren't. However the fact still remains, DC's are not only at a lower issue number but also much closer to cancellation.

    My question is why do you think that is? Why is their such a wide gap? Marvel has a few minority characters at 100+ solo issues (Shang Chi, Luke Cage, Black Panther) and some newer ones at 50+ (Miles, Miguel, Ms Marvel, War Machine) but DC has none at 100+ (unless you count Kyle who was reconned to be Latino) and their 50+ character's will likely never see a solo again due to fanboyism (Cass Cain, John Stewart, Steel, Static... Blue Beetle Is the exception here).
    Last edited by Samm; 09-16-2017 at 01:36 AM.

  2. #2
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    Other than Green Lantern, I don't see any name on DC's list there that is big enough to make the sales you might be expecting. Notable characters, yes, but you can't compare Bane, Blue Beetle, or Cyborg to Captain America, Hulk, Black Panther, or Iron Man. Even if most of those are different people, the brand is strong. Honestly, if you want a fair comparison, you should probably only be comparing Ms. Marvel and below and Bane and below, at which point it is actually pretty even.

  3. #3
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    I think one reason is that some of Marvels (Black Panther, Luke Cage) are way better established than the charcters you named for DC.

    The other reason is that DC still kept their classic heros around (there is for example still a Green Lantern Book featuring Hal Jordan, and several Superman Books) while marvel didn't (there is afaik no Bruce Banner Hulk or Tony Stark Ironman book currently).

    Most of DCs big charcters have also already quite alot of "teen side kicks" which makes it harder to add new ones, opposed to many bigger Marvel heros. I think for example the the Batman brand has kind of reached the limit in how many characters it can support (thats why I don't see much of a chance for Signal and Batwing, and even Batwoman isn't doing well), while the Spiderman brand can still support Miles Morales.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scribbleMind View Post
    Other than Green Lantern, I don't see any name on DC's list there that is big enough to make the sales you might be expecting. Notable characters, yes, but you can't compare Bane, Blue Beetle, or Cyborg to Captain America, Hulk, Black Panther, or Iron Man. Even if most of those are different people, the brand is strong. Honestly, if you want a fair comparison, you should probably only be comparing Ms. Marvel and below and Bane and below, at which point it is actually pretty even.
    This is pretty much it. Ultimately, the brand alone contributes a set number of fans. Some people just won't allow gaps in their collections regardless of the quality of work between the covers.

  5. #5
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    The top Marvel you listed, "Captain America", is a tad misleading here. The book isn't even really Sam Wilson's book at this point; it's transitioning back under a big EVENT (Secret Empire) to the original white guy (Steve Rogers) solely regaining that title. How many people bought that issue because it features a minority character, and how many people bought it despite the fact that it included a "minority character"?
    (And how many people who bought it don't give a $#!t whether it features a minority character or not?)


  6. #6
    Mighty Member TheFerg714's Avatar
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    Well first of all, you're leaving out a few minority characters at DC.
    Justice League (stars the GLs); Hal Jordan stars John Stewart and Guy Gardner (gingers are a minority!) as well; Batman & The Signal starts in November, and Duke's been a major character in Snyder's Batman runs for the last four years; Batgirl and Batgirl and the Birds of Prey (do women count as minorities?); Batwoman and Detective Comics; nuWally has shown up in Teen Titans, Deathstroke, and Flash; Black Canary is the costar of Green Arrow; Harley Quinn; JLA is chock full of minority characters; Supergirl and Superwoman; and the Black Lightning and Mystik U mini's start in November.

    Secondly, your reasoning is flawed. The only reason the top half of your Marvel examples do well is because of the title. If you take out all of those (and Green Lanterns, just to be fair), it looks like Marvel's in just about as bad of a position as DC, if not worse because they're so actively trying to push diversity. Personally, I couldn't care less about the skin color of the characters I'm reading, but for people that do, I don't really get how you can say that Marvel's pandering works better than DC's simply trying to make interesting and relatable characters.

    EDIT: DC's got Batwoman headlining two books. Where's the LGBT representation at Marvel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    DC
    Bane Conquest #4 -- 17,615
    New Super-Man #14 -- 12,339
    Blue Beetle #12 -- 11,574
    Cyborg #15 -- 10,949

    Marvel
    Ms Marvels #21 -- 17,010
    Luke Cage #4 -- 12,330
    America #6 -- 9,548
    Moon Girl #22 --7,466
    Last edited by TheFerg714; 09-16-2017 at 03:44 AM.
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  7. #7
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFerg714 View Post
    Well first of all, you're leaving out a few minority characters at DC.
    Justice League (stars the GLs); Hal Jordan stars John Stewart and Guy Gardner (gingers are a minority!) as well; Batman & The Signal starts in November, and Duke's been a major character in Snyder's Batman runs for the last four years; Batgirl and Batgirl and the Birds of Prey (do women count as minorities?); Batwoman and Detective Comics; nuWally has shown up in Teen Titans, Deathstroke, and Flash; Black Canary is the costar of Green Arrow; Harley Quinn; JLA is chock full of minority characters; Supergirl and Superwoman; and the Black Lightning and Mystik U mini's start in November.

    Secondly, your reasoning is flawed. The only reason the top half of your Marvel examples do well is because of the title. If you take out all of those (and Green Lanterns, just to be fair), it looks like Marvel's in just about as bad of a position as DC, if not worse because they're so actively trying to push diversity. Personally, I couldn't care less about the skin color of the characters I'm reading, but for people that do, I don't really get how you can say that Marvel's pandering works better than DC's simply trying to make interesting and relatable characters.

    EDIT: DC's got Batwoman headlining two books. Where's the LGBT representation at Marvel?
    1st paragraph: People of color headlining is the obvious topic based on the original post.

    2nd paragraph: Green Lanterns should count alongside Black Panther and Spider-Man. They own those titles. Those are titles that won't revert to any previous character. When you read those titles you know you're reading about a person(s) of color and not a place holder.

    This seems more of a fair comparison:

    DC
    Green Lanterns #28 -- 30,024
    Green Lanterns #29 -- 29,451
    Bane Conquest #4 -- 17,615
    New Super-Man #14 -- 12,339
    Blue Beetle #12 -- 11,574
    Cyborg #15 -- 10,949

    Marvel
    Spider-Man #19 -- 30,387
    Black Panther #17 -- 25,609
    Ms Marvels #21 -- 17,010
    Luke Cage #4 -- 12,330
    America #6 -- 9,548
    Moon Girl #22 --7,466
    Last edited by Iconic; 09-16-2017 at 07:36 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFerg714 View Post
    EDIT: DC's got Batwoman headlining two books. Where's the LGBT representation at Marvel?
    Iceman and America got that covered.

    But as for the OPs question, I am just annoyed that Vixen (and Monica Rambeau) aren't better loved and able to carry solos, and that neither DC nor Marvel seem to have more in the way of good non-Legacy Asian, Latino, etc. representation. (I feel like too many are 'Chinese Superman' or 'Latino Blue Beetle' or 'Middle Eastern Green Lantern' or 'Korean Hulk' or 'Black Captain America' and not enough are like Bumblebee or Katana or Black Panther, kind of doing their own thing and not carrying somebody else's flag.)

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    But as for the OPs question, I am just annoyed that Vixen (and Monica Rambeau) aren't better loved and able to carry solos, and that neither DC nor Marvel seem to have more in the way of good non-Legacy Asian, Latino, etc. representation. (I feel like too many are 'Chinese Superman' or 'Latino Blue Beetle' or 'Middle Eastern Green Lantern' or 'Korean Hulk' or 'Black Captain America' and not enough are like Bumblebee or Katana or Black Panther, kind of doing their own thing and not carrying somebody else's flag.)
    I kind of doubt that the previous Blue Beetle, would do better than the 'Latino Blue Beetle' it is just not a really popular brand. And Jamie has actually more solo issues under his belt than Ted.

  10. #10
    Incredible Member Samm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFerg714 View Post
    Well first of all, you're leaving out a few minority characters at DC.
    Justice League (stars the GLs); Hal Jordan stars John Stewart and Guy Gardner (gingers are a minority!) as well; Batman & The Signal starts in November, and Duke's been a major character in Snyder's Batman runs for the last four years; Batgirl and Batgirl and the Birds of Prey (do women count as minorities?); Batwoman and Detective Comics; nuWally has shown up in Teen Titans, Deathstroke, and Flash; Black Canary is the costar of Green Arrow; Harley Quinn; JLA is chock full of minority characters; Supergirl and Superwoman; and the Black Lightning and Mystik U mini's start in November.
    That's called moving the goal post man. This thread was created to talk about racial minorities in comics not LGBT and females. I'm well aware of how well DC handles it's female and LGBT character's compared to Mavel.

    Let's not bring up team books either because the difference between DC and Marvel is even greater!! Marvel has allowed Ms Marvel, Miles, Sam, ChoHulk on the Avengers and has even given them their own team! Sunspot has led the Avengers and X-Men. Monica has led the Avengers. Storm has led the X-Men. Then of course there's Black Panther, Falcon, Luke Cage, Shang Chi... etc Damn DC is so far behind!!

    Blue Beetle will never be allowed in the JL, same with Static, let alone lead a team. Hell they can't even get Titans membership!! Vixen, John, Black Lightning, Fire, Vibe or Jessica leading the League? Forget about it!! Bumblebee or Mal leading the Titans? Never going to happen. Katana or Diablo leading the Squad? Just a pipe dream. DC's diversity is being seen but not heard!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFerg714 View Post
    Secondly, your reasoning is flawed. The only reason the top half of your Marvel examples do well is because of the title. If you take out all of those (and Green Lanterns, just to be fair), it looks like Marvel's in just about as bad of a position as DC, if not worse because they're so actively trying to push diversity. Personally, I couldn't care less about the skin color of the characters I'm reading, but for people that do, I don't really get how you can say that Marvel's pandering works better than DC's simply trying to make interesting and relatable characters.

    EDIT: DC's got Batwoman headlining two books. Where's the LGBT representation at Marvel?
    Look again!! Those low selling titles (apart from Luke Cage and America) are all in the 20+ range. They'll get relaunched soon. Whereas with DC when those titles get canceled, it's off to limbo with them. Hence why I started this thread.

  11. #11
    Mighty Member TheFerg714's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    That's called moving the goal post man. This thread was created to talk about racial minorities in comics not LGBT and females. I'm well aware of how well DC handles it's female and LGBT character's compared to Mavel.
    You didn't specify race when you said diversity. My bad.

    Let's not bring up team books either because the difference between DC and Marvel is even greater!! Marvel has allowed Ms Marvel, Miles, Sam, ChoHulk on the Avengers and has even given them their own team! Sunspot has led the Avengers and X-Men. Monica has led the Avengers. Storm has led the X-Men. Then of course there's Black Panther, Falcon, Luke Cage, Shang Chi... etc Damn DC is so far behind!!

    Blue Beetle will never be allowed in the JL, same with Static, let alone lead a team. Hell they can't even get Titans membership!! Vixen, John, Black Lightning, Fire, Vibe or Jessica leading the League? Forget about it!! Bumblebee or Mal leading the Titans? Never going to happen. Katana or Diablo leading the Squad? Just a pipe dream. DC's diversity is being seen but not heard!
    Fair enough, although I think it's silly to act like racially diverse characters are just an after thought. Right now, an entire Justice League team is full of almost exclusively non-white men.

    Look again!! Those low selling titles (apart from Luke Cage and America) are all in the 20+ range. They'll get relaunched soon. Whereas with DC when those titles get canceled, it's off to limbo with them. Hence why I started this thread.
    How is getting relaunched over and over in any way better than getting canceled for low sales? Why does Captain Marvel deserve to keep getting relaunched when she can't get consistent sales to save her life. I'm all for Marvel and DC giving characters and creators chances, but there comes a point when you have to decide whether it's worth publishing a book just because of a character's skin color.
    Last edited by TheFerg714; 09-16-2017 at 11:37 PM.
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  12. #12
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Not entirely sure how DC's biases have affected Static and Steel (The former is an issue of rights to my knowledge and aside from the long-past (though excellent) 52, there hasn't been anything to really drum up interest in Steel, whose solo did end with bad sales), but if not for editorial's favoritsm, Cass would definitely and John would likely be in the 100+ club.
    I know he's not headlining the book, but isn't Steel still in Superwoman? I mean, I stopped reading after a few issues, because I just don't read Super-family books, but I liked him in the issues I read.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I know he's not headlining the book, but isn't Steel still in Superwoman? I mean, I stopped reading after a few issues, because I just don't read Super-family books, but I liked him in the issues I read.
    He is, but being a supporting cast member in Superwoman isn't exactly doing wonders for his popularity.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    Blue Beetle will never be allowed in the JL, same with Static, let alone lead a team. Hell they can't even get Titans membership!!
    Which in Blue Beetles case kind of odd, if you comsider that they seem to have no problem to put him in the League or the Titans in games and animation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    Vixen, John, Black Lightning, Fire, Vibe or Jessica leading the League?
    Does the League even have a leader? I'm not really following the modern incarnation but at least the classic version had just a rotating chairman (or woman).

    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    Forget about it!! Bumblebee or Mal leading the Titans? Never going to happen.
    Sorry but these two guys are way to obscure, but Cyborg was iirc leader of the titans


    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    Katana or Diablo leading the Squad? Just a pipe dream. DC's diversity is being seen but not heard!
    I could see Katana, Diablo doesn't seem much of a leader. Btw. did Katana ever lead the Outsiders? At least Black Lighting did that iirc.
    Last edited by Aahz; 09-17-2017 at 12:01 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post

    Btw. die Katana ever lead the Outsiders? At least Black Lighting did that iirc.
    Not sure about Katana, but Cass got to lead...for about two issues before Tomasi took over and didn't even mention her at all because of how much he loathes her.

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