Why are DC's minority character's lagging behind Marvel's?

[Anthony Shaw]

yes, mal made his debut in 1970 while vykin had 1971. but remember that mal did not become guardian until 1976.

i would love love a forever people resurgence with vykin at the forefront. if mike allred can make some rando new god like forager into a great mini series with high critical praise (bug!), then someone can surely take vykin and give him a solo shot.

he's like a good-natured magneto who's also a god from new genesis. or a modern day cosmic boy with ties to the fourth world.

the story practically writes itself ..

I totally agree with you.

[leo619]

Cass Cain and Static's original books sold well so it isn't just the audience. Damian sold well during DCYou. As skyvolt said, people have no obligation to support badly find minority books. Yeah there are people who hate minority books just for existing but that exists in every fandom. The difference is that Marvel simply chooses to try again while DC gets the lesson that no one wants to read about non white characters.

Remember, I never said it was just the audience, and Static's original book did not sell well. Though all the new 52 books started out strong, Static started out as one of the lowest selling series in the new 52, so this was BEFORE the quality problems with Static appeared. Of course the numerous problems with Static made the book drop faster than a pile of rocks, but even the author stated that Static was in trouble even before it was release.

And that's like saying all of the minority books that come out from DC are poor quality, which is definitely false. The current cyborg series may have it's problem by over relying on tech per say (as well as not boosting his power levels to where they should be), but it's definitely a better series than say Titans, which is really bad.
And it's common knowledge that quality does not = sales as there have been plenty of high quality books that doesn't do well sells wise.

[Iconic]

I'll add this:

Cyborg-
Visually unappealing. Underpowered for what DC tells us he is, which is supposedly advanced alien tech. Constantly gets hacked/systems taken down like a basic laptop which keeps him tethered to STAR Labs for repairs. He shouldn't need to be repaired and rebooted.

John Stewart-
Being that Hal is the one who's forever getting the limelight as the main GL, alter John. I used to think that him being a variant of an Alpha Lantern would have been a nice way to differentiate them. John could be a living power battery.

Black Lightning-
Stay the course of reintroducing him and insert him into big role in an event or the Justice League for a major arc. Show the fandom what his powerset is capable of.

Vixen-
Just use her more.

All these characters should have more gravity to them.

[Agent Z]

Remember, I never said it was just the audience, and Static's original book did not sell well. Though all the new 52 books started out strong, Static started out as one of the lowest selling series in the new 52, so this was BEFORE the quality problems with Static appeared. Of course the numerous problems with Static made the book drop faster than a pile of rocks, but even the author stated that Static was in trouble even before it was release.

And that's like saying all of the minority books that come out from DC are poor quality, which is definitely false. The current cyborg series may have it's problem by over relying on tech per say (as well as not boosting his power levels to where they should be), but it's definitely a better series than say Titans, which is really bad.
And it's common knowledge that quality does not = sales as there have been plenty of high quality books that doesn't do well sells wise.

I was talking about Static's very first series not the New 52.

Look up the complaints about Cyborg's book on this board. You'll see most of them coming from minority readers. I also mentioned Damian's book so you're right not all of DC's minority books are of bad quality. There's also the issue of distribution and what markets to tap into to take into account

[leo619]

I'll add this:

Cyborg-
Visually unappealing. Underpowered for what DC tells us he is, which is supposedly advanced alien tech. Constantly gets hacked/systems taken down like a basic laptop which keeps him tethered to STAR Labs for repairs. He shouldn't need to be repaired and rebooted.

John Stewart-
Being that Hal is the one who's forever getting the limelight as the main GL, alter John. I used to think that him being a variant of an Alpha Lantern would have been a nice way to differentiate them. John could be a living power battery.

Black Lightning-
Stay the course of reintroducing him and insert him into big role in an event or the Justice League for a major arc. Show the fandom what his powerset is capable of.

Vixen-
Just use her more.

All these characters should have more gravity to them.

Definitely agree, especially on the first one. When they made Thor, she wasn't a lower powered thor, she was thor that was the big gun, one of the most powerful current heroes in the MU. Cyborg should have that aspect, but on the technology has. See what Braniac can accomplish? That should be Cyborg, (of course slightly different since he's mother box driven.)

I was talking about Static's very first series not the New 52.

Look up the complaints about Cyborg's book on this board. You'll see most of them coming from minority readers. I also mentioned Damian's book so you're right not all of DC's minority books are of bad quality. There's also the issue of distribution and what markets to tap into to take into account

But it depends upon the complaints though. The ones that are coming from minorities usually has to do with his power set, and his over reliance of everything be tech based in his book. Have Cyborg go against a magical hero, show the contrast of science and magic, that would be awesome. However most of the complaints from non minorities isn't about his power set, it's about the fact that he's a founding father taking over Martian Manhunter role (who's supposedly, insultingly is suppose to represent minorities because he's green.) followed by how he should be in the Titans.

So the complaints are all over, but that doesn't mean the Cyborg book itself is horrible. It's not the best by any means, but it's definitely better quality than the current amount sold that's for sure.

[Frontier]

Definitely agree, especially on the first one. When they made Thor, she wasn't a lower powered thor, she was thor that was the big gun, one of the most powerful current heroes in the MU. Cyborg should have that aspect, but on the technology has. See what Braniac can accomplish? That should be Cyborg, (of course slightly different since he's mother box driven.)

Well yeah, that's why they had the old Thor be the lower-powered and diminished one .

[Agent Z]

Definitely agree, especially on the first one. When they made Thor, she wasn't a lower powered thor, she was thor that was the big gun, one of the most powerful current heroes in the MU. Cyborg should have that aspect, but on the technology has. See what Braniac can accomplish? That should be Cyborg, (of course slightly different since he's mother box driven.)



But it depends upon the complaints though. The ones that are coming from minorities usually has to do with his power set, and his over reliance of everything be tech based in his book. Have Cyborg go against a magical hero, show the contrast of science and magic, that would be awesome. However most of the complaints from non minorities isn't about his power set, it's about the fact that he's a founding father taking over Martian Manhunter role (who's supposedly, insultingly is suppose to represent minorities because he's green.) followed by how he should be in the Titans.

So the complaints are all over, but that doesn't mean the Cyborg book itself is horrible. It's not the best by any means, but it's definitely better quality than the current amount sold that's for sure.

Well I've seen many minority posters have argued John Stewart, Michael Holt, John Henry Irons or Mari McCabe would make better choices for the League than Victor. The thing is that Victor is still written like he was when he was a Titan so for all DC's putting him on the League they can't seem to write him in a way where he belongs in the League

[skyvolt2000]

Definitely agree, especially on the first one. When they made Thor, she wasn't a lower powered thor, she was thor that was the big gun, one of the most powerful current heroes in the MU. Cyborg should have that aspect, but on the technology has. See what Braniac can accomplish? That should be Cyborg, (of course slightly different since he's mother box driven.)



But it depends upon the complaints though. The ones that are coming from minorities usually has to do with his power set, and his over reliance of everything be tech based in his book. Have Cyborg go against a magical hero, show the contrast of science and magic, that would be awesome. However most of the complaints from non minorities isn't about his power set, it's about the fact that he's a founding father taking over Martian Manhunter role (who's supposedly, insultingly is suppose to represent minorities because he's green.) followed by how he should be in the Titans.

So the complaints are all over, but that doesn't mean the Cyborg book itself is horrible. It's not the best by any means, but it's definitely better quality than the current amount sold that's for sure.

Cyborg's issue is the better version is with Titans be it comics or cartoons. We haven't seen that with Justice League and the look of he's a possible plot device for that franchise.

Manhunter comes from the fact you had a guy who has been forever linked to JL from day one-no matter what. So that is an argument for that. However you have to make that case for Ollie & Dinah too.

The Cyborg book is not bad if we talk about the 80s-90s version but with a guy who has a mother box in him as a deadly weapon should do more than hang out in America's toilet Detroit.

He and his little buddy should the SLiders, Stargate or Dr Who of DC. Because of that mother box. You got a guy who can let you see all the universe and OPEN the door for guys like Adam Strange to show up.

[dkrook]

Cyborg's issue is the better version is with Titans be it comics or cartoons. We haven't seen that with Justice League and the look of he's a possible plot device for that franchise.

Manhunter comes from the fact you had a guy who has been forever linked to JL from day one-no matter what. So that is an argument for that. However you have to make that case for Ollie & Dinah too.

The Cyborg book is not bad if we talk about the 80s-90s version but with a guy who has a mother box in him as a deadly weapon should do more than hang out in America's toilet Detroit.

He and his little buddy should the SLiders, Stargate or Dr Who of DC. Because of that mother box. You got a guy who can let you see all the universe and OPEN the door for guys like Adam Strange to show up.

Excellent point you're making, unfortunately when have the company itself go back and sabotage a very honest, and good attempt of a writer to evolve and progress Cyborg it shows the limitation of their ideal for him.

[Yagamifire]

I'll add this:

Cyborg-
Visually unappealing. Underpowered for what DC tells us he is, which is supposedly advanced alien tech. Constantly gets hacked/systems taken down like a basic laptop which keeps him tethered to STAR Labs for repairs. He shouldn't need to be repaired and rebooted.

Cyborg needs a good villain cast. He needs his own Dr. Wily or something. Also his powers need to be better defined so it's not just the technological equivalent of magic. Too open-ended and a character feels too powerful.

If they're gonna keep him around Star Labs they should also expand more on a supporting cast for him. Superboy did it GREAT back in the 90's with Cadmus, etc.

John Stewart-
Being that Hal is the one who's forever getting the limelight as the main GL, alter John. I used to think that him being a variant of an Alpha Lantern would have been a nice way to differentiate them. John could be a living power battery.

Having grown up with the Justice League cartoon, John Stewart is my favorite GL. He should be the guy on the Justice League. Period. Hal should be doing space stuff. Earth's sector is problematic enough to require Hal to be out in space (he loves to fly anyway) while another dedicated GL sticks to Earth and it's hundred-problems-a-day. that would be Stewart.

Black Lightning-
Stay the course of reintroducing him and insert him into big role in an event or the Justice League for a major arc. Show the fandom what his powerset is capable of.

I always liked characters with lightning powers...probably stemming from the Emperor in Star Wars. Used to dig Black Vulcan. I could see Black Lightning as an older hero that has to juggle the whole family thing. I dunno...I just imagine him with white in his hair at the temples in the vague shape of lightning bolts...and I dig that. Again, he'd require a good set of villains to match his awesome power set.

Vixen-
Just use her more.

Jet-setting model/super-hero is tailor made for stories.

All these characters should have more gravity to them.

And all 4 are now in Injustice 2, which is kind of awesome. I wish it would start a push for them. More character is always better. It's really annoying to see the same few characters on multiple teams, etc.

[mathew101281]

Jet-setting model/super-hero is tailor made for stories.

Exactly, Vixen should be a female James Bond, not the "urban" hero they try as cast her as. Not to mention she has the one element Cyborg lacks, the wish fullfillment angle. She's beautiful wealthy and knowledgeable about the world. Her powers are also incredibly cool and versitle, with out being overpowered and boring. Their the kind powers that would have you guessing how she is going to use them next. I think a writer who is into animals would have a field day pulling out all manner of obscure creatures, and in a way educating his readers while entertaining them.

She's also not so overpowered that it's going to be impossible to come up with viable threats for her. Which is the bane of more tanky heroes.

[Aahz]

Cyborg's issue is the better version is with Titans be it comics or cartoons. We haven't seen that with Justice League and the look of he's a possible plot device for that franchise.

I think there are two other issues.

The first is that even if you just look at his generation of Titans (or the ones from the catoon) he isn't really the most popular of the bunch.

The second is that in a Justice league incarnation that is basically the Big Six +1, there aren't imo many "+1" that don't feel out of place for long time fans. I don't know if you following Green Arrow but in that last issue ended with him together with Bruce, Clark, Diana, Barry and Hal (wonder why they excluded Arthur) and the Watch Tower, and that feels do to me just way more natural than having Cyborg along side them.

[Assam]

(wonder why they excluded Arthur)

I think everything but Metal is acknowledging that Arthur isn't with the League right now because he's trapped in Atlantis. (I've ranted about the time-scale relating to this not making any sense before)

[kurenai24]

Exactly, Vixen should be a female James Bond, not the "urban" hero they try as cast her as. Not to mention she has the one element Cyborg lacks, the wish fullfillment angle. She's beautiful wealthy and knowledgeable about the world. Her powers are also incredibly cool and versitle, with out being overpowered and boring. Their the kind powers that would have you guessing how she is going to use them next. I think a writer who is into animals would have a field day pulling out all manner of obscure creatures, and in a way educating his readers while entertaining them.

She's also not so overpowered that it's going to be impossible to come up with viable threats for her. Which is the bane of more tanky heroes.

Mhm, it's painful when you hear from people who used to work for DC confirm that DC has no idea how to market/use/handle Vixen b/c of the reasons that's been pointed out in this thread b/c I do believe there is worth of things you could do.

[Crazy Diamond]

Marvel just knows how to take risks and commit to it despite fan backlash. I mean the last risk DC took was the new 52 made superman date wonder woman and made wally west black. What happened they buckled and took it all back. Marvel they aren't afraid to put their more established characters outside their troupes i mean thor lost his hammer and title, so did cap heck even iron man is expanding his legacy and so.
DC is afraid to make those risk and stick with them.

Maybe it's perception on my part, but DC used to be willing to let their characters change and progress. They weren't afraid to try new approaches in art and narrative. Then Dan Didio came along and fifteen years later you get the DC of today.