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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member Ianbarreilles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    Current Carol Danvers in that the way she's written/drawn implies that a woman has to act/look like a man to be strong and powerful. True sexism.
    Except she hasn't been drawn as a man the only artist who have kinda drawn her as masculine is Jesus saiz and ro stein and Ramon ronsas.

    I can think of more artists who have drawn carol in quite a feminine way even with the short hair, 01.david marquez /civil war ii, 02.kris anka/captain marvel, 03. travel foreman/ultimates 2, 04. Kenneth rocafort/ultimates, 05. Andrea sorrentino/secret empire, 06. Nico Leon/spider-man miles morales, 07. Takeshi miyazawa/Ms.Marvel, 08. Michael bandini/mighty captain marvel, 09. Steve mcniven/secret empire, 10. valerio schiti/guardians of the galaxy, 11. Daniel Acura/ secret empire and captain america sam wilson, 12. Mike deodato jr. invincible iron man, 13.Michael gaydos/Jessica jones, 14.rod reis and two or three other artists who's contributed on civil war II the oath.

    I think the point I'm making is aside from the three artists I mentioned there's not many artists who have drawn carol as masculine honestly.
    Last edited by Ianbarreilles; 09-18-2017 at 05:59 AM.

  2. #32
    Spectacular Member Solid Snake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    I always see this costume brought out as the 90's male fans service costume did you read this run by Tom DeFalco and Paul Ryan? That costume was a plot point to show something was wrong with Sue that Malice was taking her over again. Once it was done and she defeated Malice she got this costume Attachment 54832

    Also during that run Franklin was taken by Nathaniel Richards and raised for ten years in various timelines and periods coming back as a teen and also Reed was "killed"/MIA and having lost her family she came out strong and even became leader of the FF.
    For me, the problem with the costume was the very part you are referring to. I live in a country that the muslims are the majority and here, what a woman can or cannot wear is always a debate which is discussed by men. Seeing the same debate in more civilised societies with concerns like the commodification of the female body feels pretty weird. I mean as long as one can wear what she wants without facing a social oppression, there shouldn't be anything sexist or offensive in this. So I don't see why that outfit of Sue is a sexist thing or why would be fanservice is a bad thing in the first place. But in this storyline, DeFalco correlated wearing a revealing outfit with some evil intent, she started to wear it when she fell under the influence of Malice. That is the reason why I am uncomfortable with the costume.

    Apart from that however, I think DeFalco wrote the best Sue ever. After she got rid of Malice, she became a stronger and a more dimensional character than ever. I also think that he is the best writer for Thing as well, that is mainly on account of his Two-in-One issues but he's a good character writer overall.
    Last edited by Solid Snake; 09-18-2017 at 06:31 AM.

  3. #33
    Extraordinary Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    I always see this costume brought out as the 90's male fans service costume did you read this run by Tom DeFalco and Paul Ryan? That costume was a plot point to show something was wrong with Sue that Malice was taking her over again. Once it was done and she defeated Malice she got this costume
    It wasn't the classic Malice but the infinity war clone for sue who absorbed her and they merged. Sue was still in there but the Malice clone was pulling her strings kind of like peter was changed by the black suit in secret wars. It made her wild at times and more of a temper. She made that outfit as well. The fantastic four should have saw something was wrong and fixed her but the death of reed and "nobody gets out alive" stories start right after and they get kind of side tracked. Sue ends up beating the clone herself and throws away the outfit.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    None of them are as offensive as Mandrill.
    Mandril is a villain for a reason. A male character controlling women is no more or less sexist than the other way around, and there are several female characters who do this via various means.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
    Mandril is a villain for a reason. A male character controlling women is no more or less sexist than the other way around, and there are several female characters who do this via various means.
    you're missing the context. and that's alright. I know that everyone sees things from their own perspective.

    taken from his bio: "Jerome Beechman was the son of Frederic Beechman, a physicist at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, and Margaret Beechman. Before conceiving his son, an explosion breached the facility's nuclear reactor, bombarding Frederic and a cleaning woman with radiation. When Jerome was born a year later, he possessed black skin (despite both of his parents being Caucasian) and tufts of body hair. Jerome was despised by his family because of his freakish appearance, and when he was ten his father drove him out into the New Mexico desert and abandoned him.

    While wandering the desert, Jerome encountered Nekra Sinclair, the daughter of the cleaning woman who had been bombarded by radiation in the same accident that had affected Beecham's father. Although her parents were black, she had been born albino white and had developed vampiric features. For six years they lived by theft and scavenging until they were attacked by a lynch mob that thought they were monsters. The hatred triggered by the attack manifested Beecham's ability to control women with his pheromones, as well as Sinclair's powers, which the two used to kill some of their attackers and escape the rest."


    not everyone sees the racist dog whistling just beneath the surface of the origin. but there's a reason why his origin was paired with Nekra's. taken alone, there's nothing that weird about it. but the writer, himself, made it about race; with the pairing. this exposure to radiation made Nekra, the daughter of two African americans into an albino. so what did the writer think might make a good contrast to this? they had two white americans have a monkey. and they chose to name him Jerome (a stereotypically black name). and Nekra is an almost naked African American woman who is seen as desirable to most men (because she's white).


    and if you think that I'm full of it, the writer also had the leader of the racist group Sons of the Serpent be a self-hating black man.
    Last edited by Michael Watkins; 09-18-2017 at 01:23 PM.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by The One and Only View Post
    Shoddy psychic abilities that were dead on nine out of ten times. The one time I wonder if Hydra Cap had some kind of hand tipping the scales so to throw doubt in the ranks.
    The fact that you're okay with imprisoning one person wrongly cuz we got the other 9 right implies an absolute lack of a moral compass. Combine that with being willing to arrest people before they've done anything?

    So...you cool with fascism and thought-crimes huh?

  7. #37

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    Gorilla Girl. Her power set stumbles head-on into a historical racial stereotype.

  8. #38

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    Psylocke is considered a racist character because she is literally a white, British woman trapped in an Asian body who's been primarily drawn and worn outfits that are particularly fan-service-y to cater to people (mostly men) who fetishize Asian women.

    America Chavez is one of the best LGBTQ characters in todays comics. You may see "lesbian stereotypes," but it's not often that a queer character is allowed by creative teams to be unashamedly queer (especially in a way that's empowering and now played for laughs).

    I think claiming Carol is offensive because she has to display "masculine traits" is limiting on different ideas of strength. Gendering short hair and muscles is pretty inane itself. Besides, when discussing sexism in comics how do we not discuss the infamous Rape of Carol Danvers?

    X-23 was a prostitute who cut herself when she first showed up in NYX (for some reason), which I feel didn't serve her character at all and was just there for an "edgy" factor.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    you're missing the context. and that's alright. I know that everyone sees things from their own perspective.

    taken from his bio: "Jerome Beechman was the son of Frederic Beechman, a physicist at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, and Margaret Beechman. Before conceiving his son, an explosion breached the facility's nuclear reactor, bombarding Frederic and a cleaning woman with radiation. When Jerome was born a year later, he possessed black skin (despite both of his parents being Caucasian) and tufts of body hair. Jerome was despised by his family because of his freakish appearance, and when he was ten his father drove him out into the New Mexico desert and abandoned him.

    While wandering the desert, Jerome encountered Nekra Sinclair, the daughter of the cleaning woman who had been bombarded by radiation in the same accident that had affected Beecham's father. Although her parents were black, she had been born albino white and had developed vampiric features. For six years they lived by theft and scavenging until they were attacked by a lynch mob that thought they were monsters. The hatred triggered by the attack manifested Beecham's ability to control women with his pheromones, as well as Sinclair's powers, which the two used to kill some of their attackers and escape the rest."


    not everyone sees the racist dog whistling just beneath the surface of the origin. but there's a reason why his origin was paired with Nekra's. taken alone, there's nothing that weird about it. but the writer, himself, made it about race; with the pairing. this exposure to radiation made Nekra, the daughter of two African americans into an albino. so what did the writer think might make a good contrast to this? they had two white americans have a monkey. and they chose to name him Jerome (a stereotypically black name). and Nekra is an almost naked African American woman who is seen as desirable to most men (because she's white).


    and if you think that I'm full of it, the writer also had the leader of the racist group Sons of the Serpent be a self-hating black man.
    He wasn't actually the leader. He was using Kyle Richmond's (Nighthawk) money to fund them because he thought he'd turn a financial profit. I want to say that Luke Cage beat the crap out of him after the reveal ( but it's been a long time since I read the comic).

    Outside of Gerber thinking that he was doing satire...yeah, I don't have a defense for Mandrill.

  10. #40
    Mighty Member Likewater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
    So no asian characters can be criminal masterminds and asians cannot be used in any story involving criminal organizations...good to know.
    No one called Mariko Yoshida offensive, Or Silver Samurai characters when ever Wolverine battles the Yakuza. There is a difference between an Asian criminal mastermind and using a Yellow Peril derived character as a basis.

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