A damn good Story Pitch for the Spider-Man Story I never knew I needed.

[WeirdSpider]

You do understand ASM is selling the lowest in it's entire history right now, right?

This makes me soooooo happy.

The book deserves to fail cause of One More Day.
We need the real Peter Parker and Mary Jane back and not the fake Bland New Day versions.

[Mister Mets]

If you guys want to argue about sales of Amazing Spider-Man compared to Batman, there is an existing thread on that.

http://community.comicbookresources....n+Batman+sales

[VolcanikTiger86]

Ok my thoughts

Im pissed that MJ gets a by and all the fans say Peter made the deal - no he didn't read the damm story, he considered it but it was Mary Jane that brokered the deal with a Stannic creature, as Peter was in no state to do so. (Says a lot about the writing)
Taking that on border I don't think the erasing of the spider-marriage is the worst thing to happen in the past decade (I think that belongs to Nazi Cap). So on that I disagree.
Plus the cringe worthy inducing idea of doing it not a fan.
For me if I'm doing legacy I would think what do I want Spider-Man to be remembered for - that to me is responsibility, family and never giving up. So that would be my pitch
I like the image of some bad guy(s) coming down on peter and all over a sudden his superhero friends & teammates come down to help him stomp the bad guys.
I like the thought of Peter and his old friends coming together with each given a role that can be used to help Peter. So really for me I would spend a year in ASM where the old crew come back like Betty, Norah, Flash, Debra, Harry, Liz (no heel turn of course), maybe even Michelle (or introduce Zendaya MCU character as an old friend) and create an interesting dynamic but I would also use either spectacular spider-man or create a new title which would be a team up book. Have him team up with people for all corners of the MU. I feel it would have to include the teams like Cloak and Dagger, New Warriors, Secret Warriors among others.
I like the idea of the naming convention however I would do something like this instead
Amazing Spider-Man – Pete’s adventures
Web of Spider-Man – Miles Adventures (of course you could always give Miles a new codename)
Sensational Spider-Woman – Gwen’s adventures – (in the realm of fan fiction she would be in the 616 but I can leave her be)
Spectacular Scarlett Spider – Ben’s adventures (I would hit the undo button on that and get the jovial Ben back including working at the Grind with his supporting cast – Jessica, Buzz and Desiree
Sinister Scarlett Spider – Kaine – if anyone has a better title than I’m all ears I was going to call him Tarantula.
Spidey Team up Book – maxi series not an ongoing.

[WeirdSpider]

Ok my thoughts

Im pissed that MJ gets a by and all the fans say Peter made the deal - no he didn't read the damm story, he considered it but it was Mary Jane that brokered the deal with a Stannic creature, as Peter was in no state to do so. (Says a lot about the writing)

Peter basically guilt tripped Mary Jane into agreeing to the deal. Also One More Day made it quite clear that both Peter and MJ had to agree to the deal.

[VolcanikTiger86]

Peter basically guilt tripped Mary Jane into agreeing to the deal.

Have you read the story, Peter basically gave up the right to make the call, he had massive survivor's guilt because the bullet was meant for him. He told Mary Jane before Mephisto appeared that he would be happy if May died of old age but not when it was his fault and she mentioned that he said he wouldn't be happy but he would go along with her decision and she still chose to do it. Heck like I said she was the one shouting and snapping at Mephisto about Peter's identity and then brokering with him after. Is Peter written out of character: yes did he make the deal no did he discuss terms for the deal no did mary jane basically force him to accept the deal yes but once again Peter is always the one to blame while Mary Jane is held up as the love of Peter's life he needs in order to grow kinda reminds me of Felicity on Arrow. BTW I was a fan of the marriage now I'm not (mainly because of the fans) and I was a fan of Olicity guess what now I'm not.

Also One More Day made it quite clear that both Peter and MJ had to agree to the deal.

Yes and when he hesitated who talked him round that would be Mary Jane, you don't have to like the execution (I don't) but if you going to blame a character in my mind its better to blame the right one.

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

Have you read the story, Peter basically gave up the right to make the call, he had massive survivor's guilt because the bullet was meant for him. He told Mary Jane before Mephisto appeared that he would be happy if May died of old age but not when it was his fault and she mentioned that he said he wouldn't be happy but he would go along with her decision and she still chose to do it. Heck like I said she was the one shouting and snapping at Mephisto about Peter's identity and then brokering with him after. Is Peter written out of character: yes did he make the deal no did he discuss terms for the deal no did mary jane basically force him to accept the deal yes but once again Peter is always the one to blame while Mary Jane is held up as the love of Peter's life he needs in order to grow kinda reminds me of Felicity on Arrow. BTW I was a fan of the marriage now I'm not (mainly because of the fans) and I was a fan of Olicity guess what now I'm not.


Yes and when he hesitated who talked him round that would be Mary Jane, you don't have to like the execution (I don't) but if you going to blame a character in my mind its better to blame the right one.

Um...no. Peter is the only one who had something to gain from the deal (getting Aunt May back). It was a 100% lose situation for Mary Jane, but she did what any good wife would do: support her husband, even to her own detriment.

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

I think Marvel is more interested in the paying customer than the non-paying one.

Marvel would have more paying customers if they stopped treating their fans like ****.

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

To everyone saying 'the industry has changed' sorry, but this is BS.

ASM sells under 50k per issue, Batman sells 100k (What Spidey should be selling).
Digital sales count for jack ****.

Marvel tanked their sales by replacing 70% of the big name characters (MCU heros) with inferior replacements, and by the constant stream of identity politics (think the X-Men Gold debacle) this stuff leaves a really bad perception of the company to non-hardcore readers. Then what classic characters did remain they radically altered (Cap) & people are sick of Dan Slott's Spider-Man now, generally speaking. Marvel Legacy is an attempt to give the fans what they want, but it seems half assed so far. The biggest statement they could make would be to bring the marriage back, and I bet this would create a massive sale boost (esp if they got a new writer too).

OMD supporters have been coming up with reasons for declining sales for ten years now. They can't just accept that OMD was a massive failure.

[Alan2099]

Marvel would have more paying customers if they stopped treating their fans like ****.

And if those "fans" stopped acting like ... absolute garbage ... they'd be less likely to be treated that way.

[Alan2099]

double post. Sorry.

[DieHard200904]

However, the original Raimi movies are still floating around (that's what made me pick my side). USM (one of the most anti-OMD comics ever created) is still a common recommendation as a "first-time comic," as far as I can tell. RYV is a thing (maybe it's not doing as hot as mainline ASM -- but it is an AU series, so that is normal). Heck, the idea that Mary Jane is Spider-Man's significant other is basically Spidey 101 now (I have observed more instances where the average joe has never heard of Gwen Stacy but knows who Mary Jane is). And as far as the MCU goes, the biggest clickbait for the movie was the question of if Zendaya was playing MJ or not.

The fact that the RYV series would suggest that Marvel thought there was a market for it.

I've also seen some rodeos like this. A lot of the counterculture "undo the retcons" movements loose their steam pretty quickly. Right now, the various "Bring Back Legends" groups in the Star Wars franchise have slowed down considerably. You can take it to the bank that they will fail in their objectives. In the case of Spider-Man, that hasn't really happened yet. It's still a thing and generating new comics material. Now, who can say what the future holds and all that (certainly the idea that older fanbase segments decrease as new ones increase). However, I think MJ's role in the franchise is too engrained. It'd be a bit like trying to reset Rogue and Black Widow as villains; that's not what the characters are anymore, or what people know them as. So, yeah, I think this'll still be an ongoing debate five years down the road, at least.

(And, FIY, I'm one of the new generation you're talking about. Never got into comics until a couple years ago.)

As far as Star Wars is concerned, they have pretty much incorporated back Legends in a streamlined fashion. Thrawn is back on Rebels, and you have a Finn from episode 7 onward who is canon. The previous person named Finn was with The New Jedi Order. Finn from the sequel trilogy is also an ex-stormtrooper, so that's a call to Kyle Katarn as well. I was initially shocked, but to see all the elements from Legends back in canon, even though it's not identical, that's pretty satisfactory to me. Plenty of Legends got into a mess before they retconned it. Luke's canon daughter Rey is more of a character than his Legends son Ben was. About who wants Legends? It all comes down to how nitpicky one is. I certainly am fine that some elements are brought back, even if they aren't the same as they originally were (in the examples I just mentioned).

I doubt that Zendaya is the real MJW. I think she's a placeholder for Peter's high school years, similar to Lana Lang also having L.L. for initials, but it's someone Clark Kent knew as a teenager, before he went to Metropolis.

[WebLurker]

Marvel would have more paying customers if they stopped treating their fans like ****.

First of all, I’ve noticed that a lot of crap from Marvel employees and freelancers is usually the result of provocation from sections of the fanbase, who can be downright hostile, if not verbally attacking and harassing people simply because they do not like comic book X for such and such reasons. Now, I don't think that some professionals are that well-behaved in the first place (Dan Slott is not, even if he does get a lot of harassment) and the internet seems to easily bring out the worst in people, but, at the end of the day, I don't think the fans are really the victims here, or at least are part of the problem.

Secondly, do the majority of buying readers really care that much about the online theatrics that go one? Frankly, I'm more worried about whether I like the actual comics made and of my favorites stay in print, more so than what the drama queens are screaming about.

Also, it seems like the definition of "treating fans like [bleep]" is very fluid. It can be defined as anything from a writer making an impolitic comment online to the writers killing off someones favorite character, to the point that it seems like a lot of people think "if I don't like it, it's bad and Marvel/DC/whoever are trying to hurt the fans by doing it." The mindset also seems to assume that all fans have the same monolithic opinion and want the exact same thing.

As far as Star Wars is concerned, they have pretty much incorporated back Legends in a streamlined fashion.

Not exactly, there are a lot of differences. Pretty much everything post-ROTJ doesn't fit anymore and a lot of stuff from between the movies has also bee invalidated (Shadows of the Empire was overwritten by Moving Target, pretty much everything we knew about Palpatine's motivations was changed by the Aftermath trilogy and the Tarkin novel, Clone Wars completely changed the Mandalorians -- albeit Rebels has been skewing a lot closer to Legends in terms of the bigger picture, etc.). You want to go big, Rogue One is nothing like the various versions of the Death Star plans heist from Legends.

Elements have come back, yes, but I think, big picture-wise, Legends and canon are very different beasts.

...Thrawn is back on Rebels...

True, but his role is a lot different; he went from being the head of the revived Empire that operated after the original movies to being an important Imperial officer between the original trilogies.

...and you have a Finn from episode 7 onward who is canon. The previous person named Finn was with The New Jedi Order. Finn from the sequel trilogy is also an ex-stormtrooper, so that's a call to Kyle Katarn as well. I was initially shocked, but to see all the elements from Legends back in canon, even though it's not identical, that's pretty satisfactory to me.

There were a lot of characters named "Finn" (all listed here) and I'm not seeing one that matches your description), but the idea of a defector joining the good guys isn't exactly a rare plot trope, so I'm skeptical that Finn was based on any specific Legends character, much less Katarn or the Hand of Judgement squad from that little duology of books. As I recall, the Finn character was created when the movie makers were hashing things out and got the idea that making of the new leads a stormtrooper would be an interesting idea.

Now, a lot of random Legends stuff has been brought back, biggie stuff like Thrawn, to really obscure things (the Order of the Terrible Glare is canon again, as is it's leader Rur, albeit with the latter now connected to a new group, the Ordu Aspectu, instead). World-building is also gradfathered in a lot; technology is often the same, a lot of worlds are still around, even if their histories are altered, names of movie characters only established off-screen are more likely to stay around, too.

However, Legends characters are very rarely brought over, if at all and the overall sweep of history has been very different. The nature of the Force and Kyber crystals also seems to have been changed a lot, as well.

I guess the way I look at it, to use an RPG analogy, both campaigns are using a lot of the same background fluff from the source books, but the gamemaster is telling a totally different story. For some people, that might be close enough for "Legends being streamlined into canon," but I don't see it that way. (Fair enough if you do.)

Plenty of Legends got into a mess before they retconned it.

With pretty much all of the pro-Legends groups, refuting that seems to be a common mantra (right alongside "it was always canon"). To hear them, Legends being a continuity mess is lies and propaganda; it was very internally consistent. As someone who followed Legends for years, no, it was a mess; while it's true a lot of mistakes were fixed, the answers were often found in obscure RPG books or online articles and sometimes, those answers were worse than the problems (Legends had a fixation on including everything rather than just picking one and decanonizing the rest; hence why half-a-dozen mutually exclusive versions of the Death Star plans are welded together and there are so many bounty hunters on Ord Mantell). Also, there are many problems that were never fixed, like the chronology of the Clone Wars and little details here and there.

Say what you will about new canon, it has been far more internally consistent and much more well-planned out and integrated together cross-story and media in a way that Legends could've only dreamed about.

Luke's canon daughter Rey is more of a character than his Legends son Ben was.

I agree that Ben Skywalker was a far less interesting character than Rey. However, Rey's parentage has not been confirmed yet. In fact, looking at canon as a whole, I'm

About who wants Legends? It all comes down to how nitpicky one is. I certainly am fine that some elements are brought back, even if they aren't the same as they originally were (in the examples I just mentioned).

I've found most of the active groups in the Legends movement are very nitpicky. Most members and official statements have outright said that they don't care about Legends stuff being incorporated into canon; all they want is Legends brought back as a continuing side project. (Some of them seem to think that the Legends stuff being used in canon is solely to appease them, which is kind of self-absorbed of them, but whatever).

It's all on a spectrum; I'm a Legends person who transitioned to canon primarily (I do like some of the old stuff, though), I know some who like both. However, the original point I was making, is that I don't think the Legends movement has the traction needed to accomplish their goals. And, unlike in the case of pre-OMD Spider-Man fans, where there is a continuation of sorts being provided (RYV), Legends is basically dead except for whatever gets borrowed for the movies. It's harder to generate new fans of it, which is what's needed for the Legends movement to survive.

I doubt that Zendaya is the real MJW. I think she's a placeholder for Peter's high school years, similar to Lana Lang also having L.L. for initials, but it's someone Clark Kent knew as a teenager, before he went to Metropolis.

We'll see. To be totally honest, if the MCU Spider-Man story is only going to be a trilogy, I don't think they have enough time to make Michelle a temporary love interest and then introduce a "real" MJ (or whoever) to be the one Peter actually gets together with. I don't know if the plots could be developed that much in two movies to come off very well. Frankly, I was of the mind that Liz should've been the leading lady for the whole series; I think having only one love interest across the whole series worked better for the Raimi and Webb movies, since they were able to actually develop the relationship onscreen over more time. Besides, Liz may have already played the role as the first girlfriend that didn't last long-term. Do we really need a second one?

Now, obviously we don't know the full plan much less if Michelle is going to be the new girlfriend character (I'd still like to see Liz come back somehow). I'd kind of prefer them introducing a more traditional MJ, but if they want to go with Michelle, I'd rather that be the endgame. Besides, regardless of whether she was meant to be the MCU's "real" MJ or not, I could see it being an interesting dynamic on its own terms and I could compartmentalize it from the other versions of the mythos as its own thing.

[VolcanikTiger86]

Um...no. Peter is the only one who had something to gain from the deal (getting Aunt May back). It was a 100% lose situation for Mary Jane, but she did what any good wife would do: support her husband, even to her own detriment.

I'm sorry but how does this answer my point that Mary Jane made the deal and isn't blamed for it while Peter is and he didn't actually do it, yes he agreed to it but he wasn't the one negotiating with the devil, he didn't set terms and yet he gets the blame where not once have I seen a OMD hater put the blame where it belongs, at Mary Jane's feet and that's only if we are blaming fictional characters of course. The fact she didn't get anything out of it means nothing when the blame is placed somewhere else. Yes it speaks to her character that she did it but guess what noble intentions aside she still did it and you also have to understand that Mary Jane thought that eventually they would come back together because no force in the MU could keep them apart but we as fans know different. Of course you must have missed how I said I didn't like the execution but the facts are the facts in cannon Mary Jane made the deal, Mary Jane sold their marriage and Mary Jane gave Peter false hope that they would get back together those are the facts as seen in the page.

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

I'm sorry but how does this answer my point that Mary Jane made the deal and isn't blamed for it while Peter is and he didn't actually do it, yes he agreed to it but he wasn't the one negotiating with the devil, he didn't set terms and yet he gets the blame where not once have I seen a OMD hater put the blame where it belongs, at Mary Jane's feet and that's only if we are blaming fictional characters of course. The fact she didn't get anything out of it means nothing when the blame is placed somewhere else. Yes it speaks to her character that she did it but guess what noble intentions aside she still did it and you also have to understand that Mary Jane thought that eventually they would come back together because no force in the MU could keep them apart but we as fans know different. Of course you must have missed how I said I didn't like the execution but the facts are the facts in cannon Mary Jane made the deal, Mary Jane sold their marriage and Mary Jane gave Peter false hope that they would get back together those are the facts as seen in the page.

As stated earlier, they both had to agree to the deal for it to happen. Neither of them is completely blameless. But it's clear what each person's motivation was to agree to the deal, and Peter's motive was certainly more selfish than MJ's.

[Miles To Go]

Mary Jane thought that eventually they would come back together because no force in the MU could keep them apart but we as fans know different.

Do we?

Prior to OMD, the One-Above-All flat out told Peter he and MJ would overcome every obstacle and raise a family