The long road to KNIGHTFALL: the fall was longer than most think

[Buried Alien]

This post follows up from a discussion that began here.

The 1990s Batman saga KNIGHTFALL officially began with BATMAN # 492, though the long prelude to the story begins as early as BATMAN # 484 and the VENGEANCE OF BANE and SWORD OF AZRAEL specials. It was in BATMAN # 484 that Batman/Bruce Wayne's mental and physical breakdown first became clearly evident, but in fact, it's possible to interpret that the breakdown's seeds were actually planted several years earlier, and had been creeping up slowly...imperceptible at first, and then becoming alarmingly apparent during the prelude issues of BATMAN and DETECTIVE COMICS.

We'll start with Batman/Bruce Wayne at 100% capacity - physically and mentally in his prime and at the top of his game, and trace the breakdown.

1. The first brick to fall was in BATMAN # 408, a flashback story to Dick Grayson's final adventure (with Batman) as Robin and the introduction of the Post-COIE version of Jason Todd. According to the story, this was the first time that Robin/Dick had ever sustained such a serious injury during his adventures with Batman, and the incident so alarmed Bruce that he abruptly fired Dick as Robin after six years as his crimefighting partner. Though Bruce typically did not show it, this was a difficult moment for him and the first chip in his resolve. With this incident, Bruce dropped from 100% to 98%.

2. Bruce trained Jason to be the second Robin, and at first, all seemed well, until Jason discovered that his father was murdered by Two-Face and began to behave ever more rebelliously, making his tenure as Robin much more troublesome for Bruce than Dick's tenure had been. Also included was a confrontation with Dick, who came back to Gotham (as Nightwing) a year and a half after being fired as Robin to demand an explanation from Bruce as to why Jason was recruited to replace him as Robin. These incidents took Bruce down to 95%.

3. The Deacon Blackfire incident from BATMAN: THE CULT. If you've read this story, you know that Batman endured a terrible physical and mental ordeal that rivaled what he would later experience in KNIGHTFALL. The incident so affected Bruce that he briefly toyed with the idea of quitting as Batman, and shortly after Jason's demise in A DEATH IN THE FAMILY, Bruce acknowledged to himself that he hadn't been at the top of his game since the events of THE CULT. I would say this incident took Batman's resolve down to 75%.

4. THE KILLING JOKE: the crippling of Barbara Gordon (the former Batgirl) and the torture of Jim Gordon by the Joker was another traumatic incident for Batman. I would say this took him down to 65%.

5. A DEATH IN THE FAMILY: this was big...the loss of Robin (Jason Todd), which haunted him for years (including during KNIGHTFALL). I would say Jason's death took Batman down to 40%.

6. The arrival of Tim Drake as a potential (and eventual) third Robin arrested Batman's descent temporarily, but Batman's failure to save Tim's parents from the Obeah Man (Jack Drake falls seriously ill and Janet Drake dies) weighs heavily on Bruce. Batman down to 30%.

7. Death of Superman: seeing the world's greatest and most powerful hero...and one of his closest friends...fall in battle has a profound mental/emotional effect on Batman. In the back of his mind, it must have occurred to him, "If even Superman can fall, how vulnerable are the rest of us? How vulnerable am I?"). Batman down to 10%.

8. Events of SWORD OF AZRAEL were also a physical and mental ordeal (he was tortured) for Bruce. Batman down to 0%.

His reserves of resolve expended, Batman collapses during KNIGHTFALL.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[JBatmanFan05]

It was in BATMAN # 484 that Batman/Bruce Wayne's mental and physical breakdown first became clearly evident, but in fact, it's possible to interpret that the breakdowns seeds were actually planted several years earlier, and had been creeping up slowly...imperceptible at first, and then becoming alarmingly apparent during the prelude issues of BATMAN and DETECTIVE COMICS.

It's possible to see seeds, but I tend not to. The Cult and ADITF and Killing Joke were not written as some build up to Knightfall.

You can see seeds, but you can see seeds of all sorts leading to all Batman events. Batman's whole life is conflict and drama and beatings and pain. Knightfall a prelude to Contation/Legacy?... yes in a way, but no. Contagion/Legacy a prelude to Cataclysm-NML?...yes, but no.

[Buried Alien]

It's possible to see seeds, but I tend not to. The Cult and ADITF and Killing Joke were not written as some build up to Knightfall.

You can see seeds, but you can seeds of all sorts leading to all Batman events. Batman's whole life is conflict and drama and beatings and pain. Knightfall a prelude to Contation/Legacy?... yes in a way, but no. Contagion/Legacy a prelude to Cataclysm-NML?...yes, but no.

If viewed from the point that the writers first presented the stories (especially the ones early on the timeline), you are correct. The concept of KNIGHTFALL was a glimmer in no one's eye when BATMAN # 408 was published.

In retrospect, however, it's fun to put these pieces together as a longer story. In particular, I think # 408 introduced a new era of vulnerability that we had not previously seen and that would culminate in KNIGHTFALL a few years later.

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[JBatmanFan05]

In particular, I think # 408 introduced a new era of vulnerability that we had not previously seen and that would culminate in KNIGHTFALL a few years later.

On the surface, one might be inclined to agree, but lots of late Bronze Age stories had some real vulnerability about them. Whether they be custody battles or Jim or Alfred having struggles (Jim was hospitalized in one story), Pre-COIE Jason's parents murdered, etc. Batman #354 has Bruce shot so bad that Dick has to wear the Batsuit and down Rupert Thorne at City Hall.

Remember, for example, Batman Annual #10 by Moench?:

The shareholders of the Wayne Foundation and Wayne Enterprises have been intimidated into selling their stock, giving away their combined shares of the company to a mysterious man. Like this, Bruce Waye loses his company and not even Lucius Fox can help him. As soon as this happens, Alfred has a stroke which leaves him incapacitated at the Gotham General Hospital. The next day, Wayne Manor is taken repossessed in order to pay Bruce Wayne's debts as all his accounts have been seized. Without money to sustain himself, the Child Welfare Bureau takes away Jason's custody temporarily. The situation couldn't be worse and Batman realizes too late that someone is out to get him. Now penniless and homeless Batman must use just his wits to solve the caper and regain all he's lost. [Batman eventually deduces the criminal behind it all is none other than his old enemy, Hugo Strange]

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Batman_Annual_Vol_1_10

[Buried Alien]

On the surface, one might be inclined to agree, but lots of late Bronze Age stories had some real vulnerability about them. Whtether they be custody battles or Jim or Alfred having struggles (Jim was hospitalized in one story), Pre-COIE Jason's parents murdered, etc. Batman #354 has Bruce shot so bad that Dick has to wear the Batsuit and down Thorne at City Hall.

Remember, for example, Batman Annual #10 by Moench?:

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Batman_Annual_Vol_1_10

Cool. Got to check out those issues...sound interesting.

Still, I think that when the Post-COIE Batman era got properly underway with BATMAN # 408, there was a then-new sense that things were adding up to longer-term consequences than had been apparent Pre-COIE. With the Pre-COIE comics, there was still a sense that everything would return to the old status quo when the present storyline had played itself out, and that Batman/Bruce would not sustain any lasting damage. From # 408 onwards, however, I sense that even after specific storylines were resolved, Bruce would continue carrying the scars with him. Moreover, it seems that from # 408 onward, we'd see more instances of Bruce coming back to the cave bloodied, bruised, exhausted, and defeated.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[JBatmanFan05]

With the Pre-COIE comics, there was still a sense that everything would return to the old status quo when the present storyline had played itself out, and that Batman/Bruce would not sustain any lasting damage. From # 408 onwards, however, I sense that even after specific storylines were resolved, Bruce would continue carrying the scars with him. Moreover, it seems that from # 408 onward, we'd see more instances of Bruce coming back to the cave bloodied, bruised, exhausted, and defeated.

I disagree. After COIE generally: everything would return to the old status quo when the present storyline had played itself out (it's just that the status quo was now a more brooding or serious Batman ala Frank Miller's influence)

It's true that Bruce seemed more brooding and such Post-COIE, but that had nothing to do with some building lasting damage leading into his breakdown in Knightfall. It was just the new Post-COIE Batman.

Once a story ended, Bruce went back to status quo more or less...and Death in the Family's effect on things was meant to have a long linger. But once A Lonely Place of Dying ended, the writers didn't endlessly suggest some damage on Batman. Despite some fear gas or Clayface struggles with Jason's death or etc, Bruce wasn't "damaged" in some "breaking down" way tied to his Knightfall breakdown.

You have to separate out general Batman Post-COIE stylistic changes from some perceived narrative of long running Knightfall breakdown that I feel just didn't really happen.

Are we trying to create a narrative or see one that was there? I agree that "it's fun to put these pieces together as a longer story" but let's not forget the larger story didn't quite happen really with DC actually suggesting increased scarring/damage to Bruce. We as fun narrative creators have to add some imaginary assumptive plugs to make this narrative get to there.

[jb681131]

It's possible to see seeds, but I tend not to. The Cult and ADITF and Killing Joke were not written as some build up to Knightfall.

You can see seeds, but you can see seeds of all sorts leading to all Batman events. Batman's whole life is conflict and drama and beatings and pain. Knightfall a prelude to Contation/Legacy?... yes in a way, but no. Contagion/Legacy a prelude to Cataclysm-NML?...yes, but no.

Indeed they were not written in that matter. They were supposed to be non canon stories. But was Knightfall even in some minds at the time of those stories? I don't think so. But you can cleary see The Killing Joke as a prelude to Sword of Azreal because it is the first arc where Barbara Gordon plays a big part as Oracle. So doing that Denis O'Neil made events of the Killing Joke canon.

If you look at modern Batman (1986-on), he is always in situations where he gets broken down. Up to a point where he can't take it anymore and really breaks. Look at Knightfall, look at No Man's Land (he want's to save the city on his own but finally relises he needs help), look at RIP, look at Endgame.

I see Knightfall as a part of a much larger arc that goes as follows:
(Killing Joke)
Vengence of Bane
Sword of Azrael
Knightfall
Knightquest
KnightsEnd
Prodigual
Troika
Contagion
Legacy
Cataclysm
Aftershock
No Man's Land
New Gotham
Batman fugitive
Batman murderer

[Anthony Shaw]

This post follows up from a discussion that began here.

The 1990s Batman saga KNIGHTFALL officially began with BATMAN # 492, though the long prelude to the story begins as early as BATMAN # 484 and the VENGEANCE OF BANE and SWORD OF AZRAEL specials. It was in BATMAN # 484 that Batman/Bruce Wayne's mental and physical breakdown first became clearly evident, but in fact, it's possible to interpret that the breakdown's seeds were actually planted several years earlier, and had been creeping up slowly...imperceptible at first, and then becoming alarmingly apparent during the prelude issues of BATMAN and DETECTIVE COMICS.

We'll start with Batman/Bruce Wayne at 100% capacity - physically and mentally in his prime and at the top of his game, and trace the breakdown.

1. The first brick to fall was in BATMAN # 408, a flashback story to Dick Grayson's final adventure (with Batman) as Robin and the introduction of the Post-COIE version of Jason Todd. According to the story, this was the first time that Robin/Dick had ever sustained such a serious injury during his adventures with Batman, and the incident so alarmed Bruce that he abruptly fired Dick as Robin after six years as his crimefighting partner. Though Bruce typically did not show it, this was a difficult moment for him and the first chip in his resolve. With this incident, Bruce dropped from 100% to 98%.

2. Bruce trained Jason to be the second Robin, and at first, all seemed well, until Jason discovered that his father was murdered by Two-Face and began to behave ever more rebelliously, making his tenure as Robin much more troublesome for Bruce than Dick's tenure had been. Also included was a confrontation with Dick, who came back to Gotham (as Nightwing) a year and a half after being fired as Robin to demand an explanation from Bruce as to why Jason was recruited to replace him as Robin. These incidents took Bruce down to 95%.

3. The Deacon Blackfire incident from BATMAN: THE CULT. If you've read this story, you know that Batman endured a terrible physical and mental ordeal that rivaled what he would later experience in KNIGHTFALL. The incident so affected Bruce that he briefly toyed with the idea of quitting as Batman, and shortly after Jason's demise in A DEATH IN THE FAMILY, Bruce acknowledged to himself that he hadn't been at the top of his game since the events of THE CULT. I would say this incident took Batman's resolve down to 75%.

4. THE KILLING JOKE: the crippling of Barbara Gordon (the former Batgirl) and the torture of Jim Gordon by the Joker was another traumatic incident for Batman. I would say this took him down to 65%.

5. A DEATH IN THE FAMILY: this was big...the loss of Robin (Jason Todd), which haunted him for years (including during KNIGHTFALL). I would say Jason's death took Batman down to 40%.

6. The arrival of Tim Drake as a potential (and eventual) third Robin arrested Batman's descent temporarily, but Batman's failure to save Tim's parents from the Obeah Man (Jack Drake falls seriously ill and Janet Drake dies) weighs heavily on Bruce. Batman down to 30%.

7. Death of Superman: seeing the world's greatest and most powerful hero...and one of his closest friends...fall in battle has a profound mental/emotional effect on Batman. In the back of his mind, it must have occurred to him, "If even Superman can fall, how vulnerable are the rest of us? How vulnerable am I?"). Batman down to 10%.

8. Events of SWORD OF AZRAEL, were also a physical and mental ordeal (he was tortured) for Bruce. Batman down to 0%.

His reserves of resolve expended, Batman collapses during KNIGHTFALL.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Great food for thought, BA.

Writers like Shooter, Busiek & Johns have created entertaining stories by referencing past stories like this.

[David Walton]

Wasn't #400 the first issue to feature Batman facing a gauntlet of Arkham villains? So I think it's definitely justifiable to think the idea of Batman breaking down over time was already set in motion and played out in the back of writer's minds from essentially #400 until it culminated in Knightfall. And from there it just kept rolling until Bruce Wayne: Fugitive which was essentially intended to refresh Batman and bring him back to a more ally-friendly status quo (since most of his problems resulted from lack of trust).

[Buried Alien]

I disagree. After COIE generally: everything would return to the old status quo when the present storyline had played itself out (it's just that the status quo was now a more brooding or serious Batman ala Frank Miller's influence)

I think it was more than that. Prior to the reboot that followed YEAR ONE, Batman/Bruce seldom suffered any physical or emotional traumas that persisted past the storyline. Most of all, Pre-COIE Batman was still able to laugh at the end of the day with Dick, Jason, Alfred, etc., and there wasn't a constant sense of, "I hate doing this. Why can't I stop?"

Now Batman/Bruce in # 408 was still very similar to his Pre-COIE self (because his gradual fall was just beginning). In that story, though clearly shaken by Dick's near-death experience, he dismissed Dick as gently as possible...with words of encouragement, a pat on the (non-injured) shoulder, and a supportive, fatherly smile. Things started rolling slowly downhill from there, though, and I feel that from 1987-1993, we began to see Batman/Bruce come back to the cave defeated/wounded increasingly often, with Bruce growing progressively less trustful of others (especially after Jason's death) and obsessive. Bruce's character shift after YEAR ONE wasn't abrupt...it was gradual, and seemed to deepen noticeably with each new traumatic event that occurred in his life during that period.

It's true that Bruce seemed more brooding and such Post-COIE, but that had nothing to do with some building lasting damage leading into his breakdown in Knightfall. It was just the new Post-COIE Batman.

I don't think it was intentional in terms of building towards KNIGHTFALL. At the earliest, the people in charge knew that they were going to do KNIGHTFALL maybe in late 1991 or early 1992, so obviously it wasn't a goal they were building towards, but I think when the writers/editors got to the point, they took full advantage of what had gone before in the years since YEAR ONE to build the momentum.

It's hard to prove either way without asking the original people involved in those stories to what extent they were consciously (or subconsciously) building the stories that way, but a pattern is discernible.

I also wanted to ask: was BATMAN # 354 the first time that Dick ever subbed for Bruce in the Batsuit? Most would probably assume it was PRODIGAL, but # 354 predates PRODIGAL by some years. Dick was still Robin (not Nightwing) at that point, but already physically mature enough to fill in as a credible Batman in Bruce's absence.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Buried Alien]

Wasn't #400 the first issue to feature Batman facing a gauntlet of Arkham villains? So I think it's definitely justifiable to think the idea of Batman breaking down over time was already set in motion and played out in the back of writer's minds from essentially #400 until it culminated in Knightfall. And from there it just kept rolling until Bruce Wayne: Fugitive which was essentially intended to refresh Batman and bring him back to a more ally-friendly status quo (since most of his problems resulted from lack of trust).

Yes. I always go back to # 408 because Bruce's rejection of Dick Grayson as Robin was the first sign of Bruce beginning to distrust his allies (or more precisely, his ability to keep them safe), a theme that would come up again and again through the aftermaths of A KILLING JOKE, A DEATH IN THE FAMILY, and A LONELY PLACE OF DYING and culminating in the near total self-imposed isolation that made Bruce vulnerable to Bane's schemes in KNIGHTFALL. I don't think that KNIGHTFALL could have happened to Bronze Age Batman because as soon as he saw what Bane was up to, he would have summoned every ally he had to help deal with the Arkham escapees while Bruce and Dick (and/or Jason) would focus on going after Bane themselves.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[JBatmanFan05]

I also wanted to ask: was BATMAN # 354 the first time that Dick ever subbed for Bruce in the Batsuit. Most would probably assume it was PRODIGAL, but # 354 predates PRODIGAL by some years. Dick was still Robin (not Nightwing) at that point, but already physically mature enough to fill in as a credible Batman in Bruce's absence.

The substitute was brief, but yes, it was the first. Dick was physically mature enough, but I think the suit was inflated or padded or something, to appear more like Bruce's matured physique.

[Buried Alien]

The substitute was brief, but yes, it was the first. Dick was physically mature enough, but I think the suit was inflated or padded or something, to appear more like Bruce's matured physique.

Dick also didn't say anything when he was dressed as Batman; I guess at that point, Dick couldn't yet do even a reasonably credible simulation of Bruce's intimidating Batman voice...at least without laughing.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[AzraelOnline]

According to interviews with O'Neil it actually was conceptualized about a year and a half before it happened. They started it out by creating and introducing two new characters, Azrael and Bane as a prelude to what was eventually to come. And contrary to what the bloggers here at CBR want you to believe, Azrael was not hated when introduced, nor was his time as Batman at the time it was happening. The creation also had nothing to do with creating anti-hero characters to compete with Marvel and Image either.
I can see how one might think that the mentioned arcs; Killing Joke, A Death in the Family, and A Lonely Place of Dying, as well as Venom, could be mistaken for earlier allusions to Knightfall due to the manner in which elements were brought up during the arc.

[millernumber1]

According to interviews with O'Neil it actually was conceptualized about a year and a half before it happened. They started it out by creating and introducing two new characters, Azrael and Bane as a prelude to what was eventually to come. And contrary to what the bloggers here at CBR want you to believe, Azrael was not hated when introduced, nor was his time as Batman at the time it was happening. The creation also had nothing to do with creating anti-hero characters to compete with Marvel and Image either.
I can see how one might think that the mentioned arcs; Killing Joke, A Death in the Family, and A Lonely Place of Dying, as well as Venom, could be mistaken for earlier allusions to Knightfall due to the manner in which elements were brought up during the arc.

I'm still really curious about this narrative of fan reaction. Are there any archives or articles or reviews that help shape the narrative, or is it all experiential?