Generations: Ms Marvel and Ms Marvel

[Coin Biter]

"People have to be seen buying the right comic?"

No.

How would anyone know your buying habits? If you do or don't buy a comic, who would know? And if you're not buying a comic, why would you even bother to comment on it?

My pull list this week was ALL-NEW GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN: RENEW YOUR VOWS, THE AVENGERS, DOCTOR STRANGE, GENERATIONS: THE MARVELS, INVINCIBLE IRON MAN, LUKE CAGE, PETER PARKER: THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, SPIDER-MAN II, TOTALLY AWESOME HULK, VENOM, VENOMVERSE, and X-MEN: GOLD.

Besides the owner of my LCS, absolutely no one else would know what I got except for what I choose to share and discuss with others.

So no one is forcing me to buy anything and no one is guilting or shaming me into buying anything.

And even though I had a very large stack of Marvel this week, not a single issue has tried to tell me how to live. And it's that way every week.

The myth that Marvel is shilling politics across their line is pure bs. Their politics are as left wing as they've always been and, if anything, they're less intrusive than they were back when Stan used to openly get on a soapbox for a cause.

Not to mention that if the reader does have right-wing sympathies and are annoyed by any particular Marvel comic, they can always comfort themselves with the knowledge that the money they pay for the comic goes to a huge capitalist organisation, and that the head of Marvel Entertainment is a major supporter of President Trump

[Rogue Star]

I can't get enough of looking at Carol in this book. She looks fantastic.

Screenshot_20170921-085235.jpg

[Kintor]

The myth that Marvel is shilling politics across their line is pure bs. Their politics are as left wing as they've always been and, if anything, they're less intrusive than they were back when Stan used to openly get on a soapbox for a cause.

Marvel's politics aren't left wing. Workers’ rights, social safety nets, affordable housing and universal education - these are left wing political positions. Marvel doesn't care about any of that since their employees are obsessed with a rancid form of identity politics. Marvel stopped caring about promoting progressive ideals and instead focused on micro-managing people's personal relationships, constantly pontificating about the importance of race and one's attitudes towards sex. It's a political ideology built upon the shame of others and this is reflected in Marvel's hostile attitude to its own fans. If anything, it's amusing that this one-shot tries to draw parallels with the 70s political movements; when Marvel's modern politics has no connection to any left wing ideas.

[JKtheMac]

Given that you've been planted firmly on one side of the debate about how Marvel has been doing financially and creatively, I don't expect you to say anything different.

As for me, I see the meta commentary here. The intent is clear to me. This is as much about Marvel as it is about feminism.

Not sure what you think I am saying to be honest. Your second statement seems to agree with me totally but just reordering my words.

What I do know is I both agree and disagree with points made by Wilson in interviews and blog posts, and I expect many at Marvel similarly do so. I don't see anything she is saying here that she hasn't said in interviews, and she hasn't exactly been scathing about Marvel. At the most she has some views about doing legacy properly and doing it badly, and here she is reiterating how she thinks it works best. Personally I think she overstates the negative side, because I don't see many books that actually do what she sees as bad.

Wilson was pretty clear that diversity has been done well in some instances and called for the term "authenticity and realism". That seems laudable.

She doesn't like the idea of killing off a character or humiliating a character when launching a legacy character. Some people seem to see this behaviour reflected at Marvel, I don't see it. I have looked for it, by reading a representative sample of the books, and that criticism seems misplaced to me. I honestly think fans can be overprotective of their favourite characters, I don't think that is an unusual stance, it is just controversial when expressed in a place where fans hang out. If anything Generations is about pointing out how the books do not stand in opposition to the legacy they carry, and making sure the readers notice that.

Wilson sees the real debate about the rise of Young Adult fiction, and the markets they sell in, and I totally agree with that.

[Prof. Warren]

Not to mention that if the reader does have right-wing sympathies and are annoyed by any particular Marvel comic, they can always comfort themselves with the knowledge that the money they pay for the comic goes to a huge capitalist organisation, and that the head of Marvel Entertainment is a major supporter of President Trump

I know, right?

Marvel's politics aren't left wing. Workers’ rights, social safety nets, affordable housing and universal education - these are left wing political positions. Marvel doesn't care about any of that since their employees are obsessed with a rancid form of identity politics. Marvel stopped caring about promoting progressive ideals and instead focused on micro-managing people's personal relationships, constantly pontificating about the importance of race and one's attitudes towards sex. It's a political ideology built upon the shame of others and this is reflected in Marvel's hostile attitude to its own fans. If anything, it's amusing that this one-shot tries to draw parallels with the 70s political movements; when Marvel's modern politics has no connection to any left wing ideas.

Promoting equality and diversity is about promoting progressive ideals.

And they're not "constantly pontificating" about these things today anymore than they were in the '60s.

And whose relationships is Marvel micro-managing? Not mine. Not anyone else's either.

And political ideology "built upon the shame of others?" No.

Arguing in favor of diversity or simply putting diversity out there isn't Marvel trying to shame anybody. Again, no one knows what you buy and no one knows your opinion is until you share it. And if you're not buying a book, for whatever reason, why even comment on it?

As for there being meta-commentary in this Generations issue, it's more meta-meta commentary as the discussions in the original Ms. Marvel comics from the time period that this takes place in also had Carol fighting with JJJ about the direction of Woman Magazine. Should it be more about non-political subject matter traditionally aimed at women like cooking recipes and fashion tips or should it engage with the rising feminist movement of the day?

If anything, this issue seems to be making the statement that "the more things change, the more they stay the same." We're having the same conversations now that they were having in 1977.

As for this issue overall, I liked it well enough. Better than the Captain Marvel issue last week, at least. And maybe a bit better than the Hulk issue as well.

[ed2962]

Sure they have, Marvel decided that they were no longer in the entertainment business and instead were actually a political platform. For Marvel, it's not enough that people buy their comics, people have to be seen buying the right comic or be condemned as a bigot. It's a toxic atmosphere only further enforced by the behaviour of Marvel's employees across social media and even in the comics themselves, with lots of snide comments against those with different viewpoints intended to shame all those who disagree with Marvel's ideological positions. This little concession, to admit that maybe Marvel is actually pushing people away, is only lip-service until the tone of new Marvel comics actually changes into something less hostile to its own readership.

I'll concede that there have some unbecoming back and forth between some Marvel staff and some fans, but no one has been shamed into buying certain comics.

[JKtheMac]

As for there being meta-commentary in this Generations issue, it's more meta-meta commentary as the discussions in the original Ms. Marvel comics from the time period that this takes place in also had Carol fighting with JJJ about the direction of Woman Magazine. Should it be more about non-political subject matter traditionally aimed at women like cooking recipes and fashion tips or should it engage with the rising feminist movement of the day?

If anything, this issue seems to be making the statement that "the more things change, the more they stay the same." We're having the same conversations now that they were having in 1977.

Indeed. This is pretty much the way I read it, with the exception that Kamala is trying and in this case succeeding in squaring the circle. As meta-text goes, that is wish-fulfilment, magical thinking worthy of Morrison. Perhaps Wilson made a sigil and took a leap of faith. Generations as chaos magic!

[Kintor]

Promoting equality and diversity is about promoting progressive ideals.

And they're not "constantly pontificating" about these things today anymore than they were in the '60s.

And whose relationships is Marvel micro-managing? Not mine. Not anyone else's either.

And political ideology "built upon the shame of others?" No.

You haven't even bothered to address the points I raised. So, I'll bring them up again now: workers’ rights, social safety nets, affordable housing and universal education - this is what the left wing actually looks like. Because Marvel has no interest in promoting equality, how can they when Marvel has no concept of history or social class? Instead of solidarity Marvel only seeks to sow discord, dividing the world between the virtues and the bigots, along lines of race and sexuality. At least this Generation one-shot is a slight admission from Marvel that they have a severe PR problem. Unfortunately, this coaching of everything in terms of 70s politics is a lie that has no connection to Marvel's brand of identity politics.

[Rogue Star]

Not sure what you think I am saying to be honest. Your second statement seems to agree with me totally but just reordering my words.
...

...

You may be in danger of overstrething the interpretation. Given the solution, nothing radical is being suggested, no hard light of reality is being cast on events, there is nothing here to suggest Marvel were in a bind and desperate. This is just a story about a magazine topically reflecting the context of the book and where Generations fits within that context. Generations is designed to be like Kamala's solution, and that has inspired a story about feminism and seventies publishing.

I disagree with this, that's what I saying.

[JKtheMac]

I disagree with this, that's what I saying.

So you honestly think Wilson is making a point about a crisis at Marvel, despite the fact that goes significantly further than anything she is on record as saying, and contradicts most of her previously stated opinions?

[Wiccan]

God I should've known it wasn't a good idea to talk about the supposedly meta stuff, ugh.

[Rogue Star]

I'll concede that there have some unbecoming back and forth between some Marvel staff and some fans, but no one has been shamed into buying certain comics.

I feel like the attitude has been, "You don't have to like [fill in the blank], but if you don't it's because you're a [insert denigratory remark here]".

So, no... It's not quite being shamed into buying comics. But it should be no wonder people have massive chips on their shoulders after having endured this for a long time.

[Knives]

A good story doing justice to both sides.

The story presents the differences between Kamala and Carol and how both face the world and threats.

Carol is confident, strong, determined and realistic because of having more experience, being a military for a while and because of her relationship with her father. While Kamala is flexible, insecure and idealistic for being young and a person with a culture different from the vast majority of the country in which she lives.

These differences made them disagree during Civil War II and even present themselves in their powers. Which leads to another point Kamala does not feel a connection with Carol in the same way as Cho and Hulk, Miles and Peter or Nadia and Janet. What ties Kamala to Carol is his admiration and a name but what does it stand for in terms of legacy as they both live in different worlds? Is reconciliation possible?

Well this will be something interesting to see and hope it will be in the near future.

[Rogue Star]

So you honestly think Wilson is making a point about a crisis at Marvel, despite the fact that goes significantly further than anything she is on record as saying, and contradicts most of her previously stated opinions?

Facts? Like the fact that Marvel's sales have tanked this year? Yes.

[Rogue Star]

God I should've known it wasn't a good idea to talk about the supposedly meta stuff, ugh.

I know, I know. But it's there on the page. It would have been discussed whether you brought it up or not.