Generations: Ms Marvel and Ms Marvel

[Rogue Star]

A good story doing justice to both sides.

The story presents the differences between Kamala and Carol and how both face the world and threats.

Carol is confident, strong, determined and realistic because of having more experience, being a military for a while and because of her relationship with her father. While Kamala is flexible, insecure and idealistic for being young and a person with a culture different from the vast majority of the country in which she lives.

These differences made them disagree during Civil War II and even present themselves in their powers. Which leads to another point Kamala does not feel a connection with Carol in the same way as Cho and Hulk, Miles and Peter or Nadia and Janet. What ties Kamala to Carol is his admiration and a name but what does it stand for in terms of legacy as they both live in different worlds? Is reconciliation possible?

Well this will be something interesting to see and hope it will be in the near future.

I liked that question being raised but I see no real conflict there. Carol is an inspiration to Kamala, and that's all that's needed in my opinion.

[Prof. Warren]

You haven't even bothered to address the points I raised. So, I'll bring them up again now: workers’ rights, social safety nets, affordable housing and universal education - this is what the left wing actually looks like. Because Marvel has no interest in promoting equality, how can they when Marvel has no concept of history or social class? Instead of solidarity Marvel only seeks to sow discord, dividing the world between the virtues and the bigots, along lines of race and sexuality. At least this Generation one-shot is a slight admission from Marvel that they have a severe PR problem. Unfortunately, this coaching of everything in terms of 70s politics is a lie that has no connection to Marvel's brand of identity politics.

If the case you want to make depends on the assertion that "Marvel has no interest in promoting equality," you just don't have a case to make as their line - not just now but historically - has shown a clear passion for and interest in equality and diversity.

And would you like Marvel to publish more comics explicitly about "workers’ rights, social safety nets, affordable housing and universal education" so that they're left wing enough for you? Not great fodder for superhero comics, I think.

And again, Marvel is not out to "sow discord." If they publish a comic with a female Thor, a black Captain America or an Asian Hulk, how people react is on them. No one has to buy those comics and they don't have to discuss them. People need to take personal responsibility for their actions and not blame Marvel for the discussions they choose to have and the manner in which they choose to have them.

[Rogue Star]

...
And again, Marvel is not out to "sow discord." If they publish a comic with a female..., a black... or an Asian..., how people react is on them....

In spite of the hundreds of posts begging you and others to stop, you still make strawman attacks based in identity politics. But keep on trolling people. It's not like you're fueling the fire or anything.

[Knives]

I liked that question being raised but I see no real conflict there. Carol is an inspiration to Kamala, and that's all that's needed in my opinion.

Fortunately this does not have to really become a conflict but raises some questions for the future and for us to know how the characters feel.

See for example Sam and Cap and how it ended. Sam felt honored that Steve had given him this chance but also felt the weight it brings and even hated Steve deep down for giving that responsibility to him and how he even admitted although had a good side some people were born to have a specific paper, a place where they feel themselves so he will come back to be Falcon.

Miles recently had to ask himself why he needs to be Spider-Man? Just because Peter was before him? The Spider is not considered by many a hero then why follow his legacy?

The same goes for Kamala if one day Carol dies or goes away does that mean that Kamala will become the Captain Marvel?

Even if these questions do not have answers is interesting because it shows that these characters have a wide range of possibilities.

[vitruvian]

If anything, this issue seems to be making the statement that "the more things change, the more they stay the same." We're having the same conversations now that they were having in 1977.

I enjoyed the retro 70s look to this issue... even though it means that Carol is now at least in her 60s and Peter Parker at least in his 50s.

What? If these scenes took place in the 70s, then they're both four decades older, and the sliding timeline is no longer in effect.

Alternatively, the sliding timeline is still in effect, and the last 15 years or so have seen the MU go through an immense amount of change and future shock, progressing from 60s and 70s styles and technology to today's in less than two decades. Everybody's probably nuts as much from having their heads spinning from that as from having to deal with all the superhuman activity.

[vitruvian]

In spite of the hundreds of posts begging you and others to stop, you still make strawman attacks based in identity politics. But keep on trolling people. It's not like you're fueling the fire or anything.

That was not a straw man argument. A straw man argument is when one side argues against a position that the other side is not actually asserting or defending. That would require you not to have made the assertion that Marvel was seeking to sow discord whenever they publish racially and sexually diverse characters as opposed to focusing solely on social class... but you did in fact make that statement. You can certainly choose to back up the argument/statement up with some other kind of evidence or logic, but you don't get to accuse the other party of a logical fallacy they haven't actually committed, not without getting called out on it.

EDIT: It was pointed out that the person claiming the straw man fallacy was not the same person who made the original assertion to which Prof Warren was replying. I should have said that 'That would require Kintor not to have made the assertion that Marvel was seeking to sow discord whenever they publish racially and sexually diverse characters as opposed to focusing solely on social class... but Kintor did in fact make that statement.

[Kintor]

And would you like Marvel to publish more comics explicitly about "workers’ rights, social safety nets, affordable housing and universal education" so that they're left wing enough for you? Not great fodder for superhero comics, I think.

It's not what I want, I'm simply revealing the lies behind Marvel's politics. If you want I could also wax eloquently about the evolution of Fascism as a political theory and how it different from Germany's National Socialism, let alone the occult beliefs of the Waffen SS, as I did in the Secret Empire discussions. But if you want to honestly claim that Marvel is left wing then I'm going to have to take you to task over that one, Marvel isn't left wing they don't promote progressive left wing ideas, only ahistorical identity politics.

[Rogue Star]

Fortunately this does not have to really become a conflict but raises some questions for the future and for us to know how the characters feel.

See for example Sam and Cap and how it ended. Sam felt honored that Steve had given him this chance but also felt the weight it brings and even hated Steve deep down for giving that responsibility to him and how he even admitted although had a good side some people were born to have a specific paper, a place where they feel themselves so he will come back to be Falcon.

Miles recently had to ask himself why he needs to be Spider-Man? Just because Peter was before him? The Spider is not considered by many a hero then why follow his legacy?

The same goes for Kamala if one day Carol dies or goes away does that mean that Kamala will become the Captain Marvel?

Even if these questions do not have answers is interesting because it shows that these characters have a wide range of possibilities.

In Sam's case it makes a lot of sense. Not everyone is comfortable or even most efficient walking in someone else's shoes. It's time being the Falcon became a bigger deal than it has been in the past.

For Miles, there was no issue when he was the only Spider-Man living in his world. Now that he's coexisting with Peter, I can see him wanting to take on his own name.

With Kamala, she took the name of her role model that was up for grabs. If anything happens to Carol one day (or she changes her name) and people look to Kamala to replace her, I think she should do it. Her being Ms. Marvel right now feels natural and - if you ask me - she's owned it. It's her identity now.

[Rogue Star]

That was not a straw man argument. A straw man argument is when one side argues against a position that the other side is not actually asserting or defending. That would require you not to have made the assertion that Marvel was seeking to sow discord whenever they publish racially and sexually diverse characters as opposed to focusing solely on social class... but you did in fact make that statement. You can certainly choose to back up the argument/statement up with some other kind of evidence or logic, but you don't get to accuse the other party of a logical fallacy they haven't actually committed, not without getting called out on it.

I made that assertion? I said Marvel was seeking to sow discord?

[JKtheMac]

I enjoyed the retro 70s look to this issue... even though it means that Carol is now at least in her 60s and Peter Parker at least in his 50s.

What? If these scenes took place in the 70s, then they're both four decades older, and the sliding timeline is no longer in effect.

Alternatively, the sliding timeline is still in effect, and the last 15 years or so have seen the MU go through an immense amount of change and future shock, progressing from 60s and 70s styles and technology to today's in less than two decades. Everybody's probably nuts as much from having their heads spinning from that as from having to deal with all the superhuman activity.

I do wonder what the discussion with editorial is like on things like this. But maybe it is issues like this that prompted Marvel to assert The Vanishing Point is not actually time travel. We have now seen a few differences across the Generations issues as to how time is shown. On the other hand we know that whenever a character actually talks about time and gets specific (note Kamala didn't here) they make things very recent. Much more recent than the old sliding timeline theory would suggest. I don't think it is worth overthinking it, the editors didn't.

[vitruvian]

It's not what I want, I'm simply revealing the lies behind Marvel's politics. If you want I could also wax eloquently about the evolution of Fascism as a political theory and how it different from Germany's National Socialism, let alone the occult beliefs of the Waffen SS, as I did in the Secret Empire discussions. But if you want to honestly claim that Marvel is left wing then I'm going to have to take you to task over that one, Marvel isn't left wing they don't promote progressive left wing ideas, only ahistorical identity politics.

The whole left-wing/right-wing construct is a ridiculously blunt instrument dating back to the early days of the post-Revolutionary French legislative chambers, and doesn't really apply particularly well to any political system in which actual hereditary nobility vs 'commoners' isn't actually a major axis of political beliefs... so today, basically none, even the UK with the House of Lords. That said, to the extent it's useful to label positions and their adherents either 'left' or 'right' at all, a concern with civil rights and diversity on a racial and sexual (and sexual orientation, and ability vs disability, etc.) basis as well as on a socioeconomic class one, is indeed more of a view of the left than of the right. I'd also say that labeling such concerns as 'ahistorical identity politics' is neither accurate (because there's certainly a lot of history to these politics) nor effective in dismissing them as unworthy of consideration as a part of overall left-wing (for lack of a better label) politics.

[vitruvian]

I made that assertion? I said Marvel was seeking to sow discord?

Pardon... I should have said that the party Prof Warren was replying to had made that assertion, not you personally in fact. Since Warren was replying to an assertion that was in fact made, Warren's statement cannot be an example of the straw man fallacy.

[JKtheMac]

Facts? Like the fact that Marvel's sales have tanked this year? Yes.

Sigh. You mean in exactly the same way Image and DC's sales have been dropping in 2017? I didn't realise this book was a commentary on the whole industry, and retail in general!

[Rogue Star]

Sigh. You mean in exactly the same way Image and DC's sales have been dropping in 2017? I didn't realise this book was a commentary on the whole industry, and retail in general!

Well, it's not like none of those other companies have pointed a finger at Marvel's sales or anything. Right?

[Rogue Star]

Pardon... I should have said that the party Prof Warren was replying to had made that assertion, not you personally in fact. Since Warren was replying to an assertion that was in fact made, Warren's statement cannot be an example of the straw man fallacy.

Ok. This instance may not have been a strawman but my comment to him has the context of past interactions between me and him in which he has been guilty of it. Nothing like being called a misogynist for not liking a character that just happens to be female. And if you'll notice, the post that I was responding to shows that some people can hardly go without trying to make a character's ethnicity or gender the basis of criticism of the character.