[Love/Hate] Identity Crisis and Batman v Superman

[Buried Alien]

Even one of them going along with reprogramming Dr. Light. For starters.
And especially Zatanna, who is actually doing it.

These characters have continuously evolved throughout their existence. Things that they casually thought or did forty or fifty years ago and were casually accepted by fans back then would not be so today. To cite a well-known example from a parallel medium, Superman notoriously mindwiped Lois Lane in the denouement of SUPERMAN II back in 1981. Nobody I knew (including me) considered it odd at the time; it was just something that we assumed superheroes did from time to time. Today, our sensibilities are different and we look back at that scene through different eyes.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[reni344]

I would say Zatanna is in character she keeps trying to mindwipe people later. She tries to mind wipe Selina Kyle in Gotham City Sirens.

[Assam]

I would say Zatanna is in character she keeps trying to mindwipe people later. She tries to mind wipe Selina Kyle in Gotham City Sirens.

You think it's in character because later writers took inspiration from the story where she was OOC when writing her? That's some loopdaloop logic right there.

Also, I said this earlier, but I'm with Carabas that the heroes involved in the mindwipe were OOC *(and they aren't the only ones in that story)

* Except for maybe Hawkman. He's kind of an a**hole.

[Carabas]

To cite a well-known example from a parallel medium, Superman notoriously mindwiped Lois Lane in the denouement of SUPERMAN II back in 1981. Nobody I knew (including me) considered it odd at the time; it was just something that we assumed superheroes did from time to time.

Well, I certainly thought it to be extremely odd when the movie came out. Made me really dislike Superman.

And you know, it's not relevant to the matter. We're not talking about making somebody forget a secret ID. We're talking about complete personality reconstruction.

[Outside_85]

I would say Zatanna is in character she keeps trying to mindwipe people later. She tries to mind wipe Selina Kyle in Gotham City Sirens.

That... seems to contradict just about everything regarding the fact that Zatanna sought out Selina to apologize for earlier mindwipes, got gagged with gaffa tape and pushed out the window. Even more so when Selina came to Zatanna to even the scales when someone was persistently targeting her and her kid because they found out who Catwoman really was. And even later in GCS where I seem to recall Zatanna getting involved because she feared Ivy and Harley had coaxed Batmans identity out of Selina... same thing that caused Talia to appear.

[reni344]

You think it's in character because later writers took inspiration from the story where she was OOC when writing her? That's some loopdaloop logic right there.

Also, I said this earlier, but I'm with Carabas that the heroes involved in the mindwipe were OOC *(and they aren't the only ones in that story)

* Except for maybe Hawkman. He's kind of an a**hole.

How would I know if she is out of character? If that is the first story I ever really read her in? And then they keep her in that character in later stories, that is not a leap in logic if you had not read that character before and then see them portrayed the same way in other stories why would'nt I think that is her character? Her character in Idenity Crisis does not exacly make me want to go back and read more about her. Not everyone has the same knowledge of a character it all depends on when you jump in you should keep that in mind.

[Buried Alien]

How would I know if she is out of character? If that is the first story I ever really read her in? And then they keep her in that character in later stories, that is not a leap in logic if you had not read that character before and then see them portrayed the same way in other stories why would'nt I think that is her character? Her character in Idenity Crisis does not exacly make me want to go back and read more about her. Not everyone has the same knowledge of a character it all depends on when you jump in you should keep that in mind.

Indeed. If you took Wally West in the Silver Age, Wally West in the Bronze Age as a New Teen Titan, late 1980s/early 1990s Wally West during his early days as the Flash, and Wally West during his final years as Flash (being a married man with kids) before Barry Allen's return, you'd think they're five different guys.

But no, it was all one guy doing different things at different points of his life.

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[BatmanJones]

I think people are probably done voting in this thread. It will remain open for future voting but here's a surprising report on how things look in this poll now.

We know that at least TWO people voted "Loved BvS, Hated ID Crisis" without reading ID Crisis. Those votes are null and void.

The reason I posted this poll is because I regard the board to be very pro-BvS and very anti ID Crisis, and the complaints mostly stem from people feeling the heroes are OOC. That was the common link. I was trying to demonstrate that what's good for the goose is good for the gander and that if you don't have a problem with Batman and Superman killing on purpose, it's weird to have a problem with any perceived OOC behavior in ID Crisis.

I was surprised to learn that I was wrong about how the board regards these two properties though. I'd have thought BvS would have been widely beloved and ID Crisis widely hated.

But when those two null-votes are subtracted here are the results:

Loved BvS/Hated ID Crisis: 13
Loved ID Crisis/Hated BvS: 18

According to the poll there are significantly more that loved ID Crisis but hated BvS. That was my vote but I did not at all expect it to be the majority vote between those two options. How encouraging to learn that the somewhat quiet majority chose the expert ID Crisis over the horrendous BvS.

[Buried Alien]

I think people are probably done voting in this thread. It will remain open for future voting but here's a surprising report on how things look in this poll now.

We know that at least TWO people voted "Loved BvS, Hated ID Crisis" without reading ID Crisis. Those votes are null and void.

The reason I posted this poll is because I regard the board to be very pro-BvS and very anti ID Crisis, and the complaints mostly stem from people feeling the heroes are OOC. That was the common link. I was trying to demonstrate that what's good for the goose is good for the gander and that if you don't have a problem with Batman and Superman killing on purpose, it's weird to have a problem with any perceived OOC behavior in ID Crisis.

I was surprised to learn that I was wrong about how the board regards these two properties though. I'd have thought BvS would have been widely beloved and ID Crisis widely hated.

But when those two null-votes are subtracted here are the results:

Loved BvS/Hated ID Crisis: 13
Loved ID Crisis/Hated BvS: 18

According to the poll there are significantly more that loved ID Crisis but hated BvS. That was my vote but I did not at all expect it to be the majority vote between those two options. How encouraging to learn that the somewhat quiet majority chose the expert ID Crisis over the horrendous BvS.

It varies from fan to fan, but I tend to be more forgiving of movies and TV programs adapted from comics than I am to the comics themselves.

If they want Barry Allen to have brown hair on TV or in the movies, OK...whatever.

If they suddenly start coloring his hair brown in the regular continuity comics without explanation, though, then I'd have a problem with that.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[phantom1592]

Well, those guys are not only many magnitudes more powerful than Deathstroke, they also usually don't take on the aforementioned teams by having a one-vs-all standoff on a random sidewalk, and they certainly don't win by simply punching out their far more powerful opponents. I suppose it's unfortunate for you that most authors actually take the capabilities of heroes into account when they have villains fight them, instead of...omg...having Green Lantern consciously levitate down to the villain just to punch him after they somehow just took out his entire team before he could even do anything. I honestly couldn't believe what I was reading. Wally running right into a sword that wasn't even moving, Dinah having zero hand-to-hand capabilities...yeah I don't know, it all just felt very childish and poorly-thought-out to me. Very "style-first, who cares about the rest" kinda deal.

But that's not really THAT unusual. Flash and Green Lantern are character that can are so vastly overpowered that there really isn't any actual threat to them. More than even Superman, they can literally do ANYTHING... and EVERY single TIME they get put on in a team fight, they get beat down with the idiot stick in order to not steal the show. Dinah?? She's not on Deathstroke's level. I don't have any problem with her getting beat down by him, she's been beaten by worse than that. There was a pre-planned aspect to it that really reminded me of a Bat-god plan being used by an enemy. Wally didn't 'run right into a sword'... he dodged preset explosions that manipulated him where he HAD to be to make it work... Still something that shouldn't work with a flash... but then nothing really SHOULD... and he's been dealing with Deathstroke since Teen Titans.

Had deathstroke been replaced with Batman... I don't think people would have even blinked at it.

Even one of them going along with reprogramming Dr. Light. For starters.
And especially Zatanna, who is actually doing it.

Well, I certainly thought it to be extremely odd when the movie came out. Made me really dislike Superman.

And you know, it's not relevant to the matter. We're not talking about making somebody forget a secret ID. We're talking about complete personality reconstruction.

This is the thing about it that constantly gets confused up... Reprogramming minds was supposed to be the unholy sin they they were commiting. NOT just a mind wipe. Memory Wipes have been standard for as long as there have been comics and always will be. Actually reprogramming them into being a joke... That was much more of a gray area.


And honestly, I don't think it should be. There is MUCH more value placed on free will in comics than we place on free will in the real world. There are a LOT of psychotic people... violent people who are forced to take mood altering medication. People proclaim that rapists and pedophiles should be castrated... sterilized... executed... But waving your hand and say 'You don't rape people anymore'.... THAT''s somehow morally wrong??!

Batman of all people would NEVER have been against that. Barry Allen maybe... Green Arrow certainly should have been stealing anyone's 'rights' to think like they want to... but BATMAN??? The moment there was a 'Stop being crazy' hand wave made obvious, He'd have grabbed Zatanna and drove straight to Arkham!! Joker's not evil... Harvey Dent is cured... Ra's stops trying to take over the world... No more dead Robins... Oh yeah... 'Stop ALL Crime' would be right up his alley.

As for Superman 2? It bothers me more now than it did when I was a kid. As a kid I was more annoyed that wasn't an ACTUAL power. As much as I loved that movie... If you can't find a solution with the 20 powers Superman already HAS and need to make up more... You're not trying hard enough!

The investigation still bothers me with Identity crisis.
Even if it was in the kitchen the Atom suit could've discharged some particles, the flamethrower would leave residue, NOBODY CHECKED THE DAMN PHONE LINE.

And what's worse about this is that an Atom suit is missing and Ray didn't notice, a murder happened and you can apparently just get a flamethrower so why did nobody check any order on weapons, or did Jean just have those and nobody ever noticed? She brought other weapons as well so if she had been carrying firearms did nobody ever do a blanket sweep of people in the area, or with a connection to Jean that would own that? Batman of all people missed this? Furthermore when she was also "kidnapped" in the story she apparently self-inflicted wounds and unless you do a really good job, a medical examiner is going to notice that. Not to mention that she also used the atom suit to get into the noose so nobody noticed that nobody but Jean was in the room? Doctor Light may also be a retconned rapist but how do you get lightblast out of flamethrower discharge and does that mean that sort of technology is literally as effective as heatvision, or technological or meta based energy blasts? As well as if they are acting on impulse (because clearly no other kind of villain would threaten a heroes loved ones) then that's stupid because it could've been literally anybody.

yeah, I just went back and double checked... Batman was the first person to work the crime scene... and can't tell the difference between Laser blast and Arson. Because... it's not like he has half a dozen flamethrowing arsonists in gotham... this was just beyond him. Even Animal Man was brought in to try to find a scent... and apparently this is fuel-less flamethrower because he found nothing... A completely impromptu accidental crime of passion... and she didn't leave a SINGLE clue that the world's greatest detectives could find.

Also... I felt they went WAY too liberal with the 'secret identities' in this one. Sure, the satellite era guys all know each other... but how the hell did Jean know about Tim Drake??! She was divorced from Ray long before Tim showed up. He wasn't on a League... Ray had no dealing with his Teen Titans... Outside of a possible Funeral or two mega group shot, I don't think Atom and Robin were ever in the same room... but somehow Robin's dad becomes the perfect next target to throw off suspicion.,... WTH?!? That made no sense at all unless Atom actually drunk dialed his ex to tell her "Hey guess what!! Batman has a new Robin... his name is Tim Drake and this one actually isn't an orphan yet!!"

[Carabas]

Batman of all people would NEVER have been against that. Barry Allen maybe... Green Arrow certainly should have been stealing anyone's 'rights' to think like they want to... but BATMAN??? The moment there was a 'Stop being crazy' hand wave made obvious, He'd have grabbed Zatanna and drove straight to Arkham!! Joker's not evil... Harvey Dent is cured... Ra's stops trying to take over the world... No more dead Robins... Oh yeah... 'Stop ALL Crime' would be right up his alley.

It's 70's Batman, who was not a psychotic jerk, who was about as much mr. law & order as Superman, wh only ever had the one Robin, and he hadn't even graduated into Nightwing yet.

Also, Zatanna completely botched the job. They failed turning Light into what they were going for, ending up with a still supervillainous moron instead.

[phantom1592]

Also, Zatanna completely botched the job. They failed turning Light into what they were going for, ending up with a still supervillainous moron instead.

Well, that's true... Still an improvement though Y'know... I think I may try to wrap my own headcanon that he DID go to Arkham with her and that's why Joker and the rest went years as a goofy pranksters...

It's 70's Batman, who was not a psychotic jerk, who was about as much mr. law & order as Superman, wh only ever had the one Robin, and he hadn't even graduated into Nightwing yet.

You mean this one?


Batman was much more of a 'GOOD GUY' back then... it wasn't about Law and Order... it was about Justice and protecting people so nobody every has to go through what he did. I absolutely HATE the psychotic Jerk we got after Miller and Morrison screwed him up... but even back then some old fashioned hypnosis or radical treatment wouldn't have bothered him.

The whole idea of Arkham was that these people SHOULD be getting cured. Drugs, therapy, Electroshock... whatever, as long as they aren't a threat to the citizens anymore. It's turned into just another dark hole of despair to drop your enemies in until they eventually break out... but that sucks a lot worse than any mind wipes for evil people...