'Avengers: No Surrender' Crossover Starting in January

[JKtheMac]

How are the Avenger titles selling lately? Besides Hydra Captain, everything since Secret Wars seems like a repetition...

I mean, we had another Civil War, another Dark Reign, another Utopia, several rounds of the High Evolutionary deciding to exterminate his flawed creations, two expeditions of the Avengers to Counter-Earth where they meet a good son of the High Evolutionary, another Planet-crashing Incursion-like event and the last story arc seems like a mix of the Sentry first mini-series and the typical Grandmaster story...

I think I will like Viv's arc... I hope they don't go the easy, simple route and turn the new Viv into an evil maniac due to sibling rivalty and daddy issues...

From the marketing and hype it would seem this particular story is selling very well indeed, but this is early days, and lets face it a weekly book is a commitment. I agree Avengers hasn't been exceptional but some of the Waid material has been interesting. He is very good at the short form, single issue material. He has a short-story writer approach which I always appreciate.

[Cloudman]

It's a good thing this is weekly, because the story is progressing at a snail's pace. I'm still enjoying it a lot more than I've enjoyed Avengers these past couple of years, but the story needs to get moving or it'll be over before anything has actually happened.

[JKtheMac]

It's a good thing this is weekly, because the story is progressing at a snail's pace. I'm still enjoying it a lot more than I've enjoyed Avengers these past couple of years, but the story needs to get moving or it'll be over before anything has actually happened.

It is sixteen issues and an epilogue - that's a lot of time.

[Witchfan]

How are the Avenger titles selling lately? Besides Hydra Captain, everything since Secret Wars seems like a repetition...

I mean, we had another Civil War, another Dark Reign, another Utopia, several rounds of the High Evolutionary deciding to exterminate his flawed creations, two expeditions of the Avengers to Counter-Earth where they meet a good son of the High Evolutionary, another Planet-crashing Incursion-like event and the last story arc seems like a mix of the Sentry first mini-series and the typical Grandmaster story...

I think I will like Viv's arc... I hope they don't go the easy, simple route and turn the new Viv into an evil maniac due to sibling rivalty and daddy issues...

I think sales are bad. Mark Waid’s issues are selling around 20,000 issues less than the Jonathan Hickman run. New Avengers, US Avengers, and Occupy Avengers bombed. Only Uncanny Avengers sold well, and that is still down from the Rock Remender issues.

[Digifiend]

It is sixteen issues and an epilogue - that's a lot of time.

The epilogue IS the sixteenth issue, but yeah, point stands.

[Mary Jay]

This isn't retconning 50 years of Avengers by any stretch of the imagination. If she sticks then it would be a retcon of a chapter of very early Avengers. Then once she was gone nearly everything would remain the same. I really don't see why fans would loose sleep over who said what in the sixties.

I never implied people would lose sleep over it, I merely said they wouldn't be happy about it. I wouldn't be happy, and I know a lot of fans who feel the same. This is a part of the Avengers history I feel they shouldn't mess with permanently. I'm aware others might feel less involved over its possible alteration, but that's the way I feel about it.

But my comment had more to do with the net gain Marvel would get from it versus the fans reaction. First of all, I like the story so far and I'm intrigued by its development and its outcome. But I really don't feel like these changes are going to be permanent (the re-writing of the history of the Avengers, I mean). Maybe this Voyager character will remain at the end of this, but I don't see any improvement by retconning how the Avengers came to be. And Voyager seems too powerful to me... she could have dealt with Loki on her own, she could have handled the Hulk on her own, same for the Lava Men, Kang, Zemo, the Masters of Evil, etc... The stories published wouldn't have worked with such a powerful character part of the team.

I'm still thinking there is more to this than a simple retcon. My feeling is that Voyager is just that, a voyager through time, and she has inserted herself in the history of the Avengers, altering people's memories, so that she can observe and take part in whatever this is. Maybe she's assessing their worth, maybe she's just a curious historian from the future, maybe as some have suggested she's actually Valeria Richards. I have no idea so far, but I'm more than willing to let the story unfold. Although if they retcon this for real, I'll be very disappointed in Marvel, Waid, Ewing and Zub, and honestly very surprised they thought this could be a good idea.

[ChronoRogue]

https://www.newsarama.com/38409-spoi...at-s-next.html

New interview with Jim Zub. Also looks like a preview preview page from one of the issue's Paco Medina's takes art duty on.


Tidbits that stuck out.

Nrama: In the near future, I see that Wonder Man will reunite with Beast. What can fans look forward to there?
Zub: Beast and Nadia have been working to save Jarvis and Simon comes to their aid, but not the way they expect. Simon’s ionic energy form is going to come in handy…

Nrama: But there's also the tease of a "crushing loss of one of their own." I'm no mathematician, but Johnny's in a bad way with #678's end and Jarvis is on his deathbed too. What can you say about this presumed tragedy coming up?
Zub: The Avengers are on the ropes and their numbers are going to get thinned out. This issue notches one, but it won’t be the last. With a cast of over twenty heroes you knew we had to start knocking some of them off...

Nrama: Big picture, what can fans get excited about in February with the second month of Avengers “No Surrender”?
Zub: The Challenger revealed, our heroes mourn, and the Avengers get to the business of avenging, no matter what it costs…

[planetxmen]

This storyline is terrible.

[Digifiend]

I wonder if Johnny being taken off the board will release someone else? Enigma's been de-iced in that preview page.

[Bl00dwerK]

I'm digging the shit out of it. Part of it is Pepe's art. He's amazing.

[King_Thor13]

I wonder if Johnny being taken off the board will release someone else? Enigma's been de-iced in that preview page.

I suspect those that 'die' are in fact captives of the Grandmaster and the Challenger. We may have more losses to come, which may, in turn, free other characters from stasis that are on one of the involved teams, or that have a role to play in No Surrender. I very much doubt that Captain America, Black Panther, Hawkeye, Wasp, and Vision will be sidelined for the entirety of the event.

[JKtheMac]

The epilogue IS the sixteenth issue, but yeah, point stands.

From the interview I listened to we can expect a seperate epilogue. That is usually how these things work. Climax in one or two issues and denoument seperated out into an issue that reflects upon the status quo that has been created.

[JKtheMac]

I never implied people would lose sleep over it, I merely said they wouldn't be happy about it. I wouldn't be happy, and I know a lot of fans who feel the same. This is a part of the Avengers history I feel they shouldn't mess with permanently. I'm aware others might feel less involved over its possible alteration, but that's the way I feel about it.

But my comment had more to do with the net gain Marvel would get from it versus the fans reaction. First of all, I like the story so far and I'm intrigued by its development and its outcome. But I really don't feel like these changes are going to be permanent (the re-writing of the history of the Avengers, I mean). Maybe this Voyager character will remain at the end of this, but I don't see any improvement by retconning how the Avengers came to be. And Voyager seems too powerful to me... she could have dealt with Loki on her own, she could have handled the Hulk on her own, same for the Lava Men, Kang, Zemo, the Masters of Evil, etc... The stories published wouldn't have worked with such a powerful character part of the team.

I'm still thinking there is more to this than a simple retcon. My feeling is that Voyager is just that, a voyager through time, and she has inserted herself in the history of the Avengers, altering people's memories, so that she can observe and take part in whatever this is. Maybe she's assessing their worth, maybe she's just a curious historian from the future, maybe as some have suggested she's actually Valeria Richards. I have no idea so far, but I'm more than willing to let the story unfold. Although if they retcon this for real, I'll be very disappointed in Marvel, Waid, Ewing and Zub, and honestly very surprised they thought this could be a good idea.

I agree that the way it has been written so far is provoking people. That seems to be deliberate. I think they have a plan to square the circle. My theory is that both versions of the past will be true. It has a Grant Morrison, tongue-in-cheek quality to it, especially with the DC tie-in element.

[Digifiend]

From the interview I listened to we can expect a seperate epilogue. That is usually how these things work. Climax in one or two issues and denoument seperated out into an issue that reflects upon the status quo that has been created.

The final battle is in the extended length issue 689, which is part 15.

AVENGERS #689
AL EWING, JIM ZUB & MARK WAID (W) • PEPE LARRAZ (A)
Cover by MARK BROOKS
End of an Era Variant by Chris Sprouse
THE AVENGERS WEEKLY EPIC CONTINUES!
NO SURRENDER Part 15
One last battle against an impossible opponent. One last game with astronomical stakes. With the fate of the Earth on the line, a cry goes out across the Marvel Universe: AVENGERS ASSEMBLE!
40 PGS./Rated T+ …$4.99

AVENGERS #690
AL EWING, JIM ZUB & MARK WAID (W) • PACO MEDINA (A)
COVER BY Mark Brooks
End of an Era Variant by Chris Sprouse
Variant COVER by InHyuk Lee
THE AVENGERS WEEKLY EPIC CONCLUDES!
“NO SURRENDER” REACHES ITS FINALE!
The battle is over, and those left standing in the rubble have to find a way to move forward. As an era of the Avengers comes to a close, what will rise to take its place?
32 PGS./Rated T+ …$3.99

[JKtheMac]

The final battle is in the extended length issue 689, which is part 15.

AVENGERS #689
AL EWING, JIM ZUB & MARK WAID (W) • PEPE LARRAZ (A)
Cover by MARK BROOKS
End of an Era Variant by Chris Sprouse
THE AVENGERS WEEKLY EPIC CONTINUES!
NO SURRENDER Part 15
One last battle against an impossible opponent. One last game with astronomical stakes. With the fate of the Earth on the line, a cry goes out across the Marvel Universe: AVENGERS ASSEMBLE!
40 PGS./Rated T+ …$4.99

AVENGERS #690
AL EWING, JIM ZUB & MARK WAID (W) • PACO MEDINA (A)
COVER BY Mark Brooks
End of an Era Variant by Chris Sprouse
Variant COVER by InHyuk Lee
THE AVENGERS WEEKLY EPIC CONCLUDES!
“NO SURRENDER” REACHES ITS FINALE!
The battle is over, and those left standing in the rubble have to find a way to move forward. As an era of the Avengers comes to a close, what will rise to take its place?
32 PGS./Rated T+ …$3.99

None of this is in dispute? I need to double check my source but I expect an added epilogue that will probably arrive some point in May. Let me recheck and get back to you.

But this is definitely a 16 issue run. That has been stated clearly by many. (690 is part 16 no argument there). I expect one more issue that is technically not part of the event and may even be a tie-in / not part of The Avengers numbering.