A Question For New 52 Superman Fans...

**Bored at 3:00AM** · 10-03-2017, 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by manofsteel1979

I still think the solution is just reveal casually that Krypto is a Kryptonian caninemorph and that he can change appearances. He sometimes looks like the little white dog of the silver age, or a Dire-wolf or the Retriever of the post Crisis era.

Simple. Elegant and allows everything to be in continiuity

That's how I view it. Krypto is not a human dog. Who knows what a Kryptonian canine looks like at different stages in its life cycle? Maybe it caught a cold

**TheSupernaut** · 10-03-2017, 04:57 AM

Did not expect this post to blow up like this. I personally miss New 52 Superman but I feel Reborn Superman is as good as its gonna get for us. I certainly like him more than Rebirth Superman. Still, my favorite Superman is DCEU Superman so what does that tell you?

**Minerboh** · 10-03-2017, 06:12 AM

Absolutely love the current Superman!

**Last Son of Krypton** · 10-03-2017, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by Gemini

@new52 superman fans what volumes/runs to read from the n52?

**Minerboh** · 10-04-2017, 04:42 AM

There's also the Superman Unchained mini which was entertaining.

**Black Angel** · 10-07-2017, 08:59 PM

So glad i'm not alone with the new 52 krypto look it was awesome and yes the origin touched you.

I really wished they didn't change lara so much though sigh

**Adekis** · 10-07-2017, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by FishyZombie

@Adekis
I've been on this before, but I also miss new 52 Krypto. I mean I'm incapable of disliking any dog, so I don't dislike classic krypto, but I see that as a downgrade. I'd accept it if puppy krypto could like transform into a direwolf at will or something, as a middle ground. But even then, I want straight up N52 Krypto back.

Yes! One of us! One of us!

Anyway to clarify, I guess everyone has there personal definition for hard and soft reboots. I'm considering hard reboots to be clean slates and soft to be tweaking stuff around while keeping the bones intact.

I guess I consider all Superman retcons and reboots to be "tweaking stuff around while keeping the bones intact" at the end of the day...

Anyway New 52 Superman and Flash got clean slates, which is why I saw them as hard reboots. I guess you can use head canon to try and consider some past stories happened, but I don't think it was ever meant to be the case, and if it was, then it's wasn't direct references

The way I read it at the time, I never questioned that we were supposed to be reading Golden Age stories into the t-shirt and jeans gap, or Silver or Bronze Age stories into gaps at various points. Unlike after the '86 reboot, many old-school stories fit pretty neatly into those gaps, since elements like Superman's ridiculously fast interplanetary travel or the multiverse still existed. I'll cop to it though: there's definitely a huge number of Silver and Bronze Age stories that straight up don't work in those gaps, even though I think Morrison intends it to be read that way.

It really just comes down to those details for me. I don't want Superman to get a clean slate as he did, because I prefer a Superverse that feels lived in. Also I think part of the problem that's causing all these reboots is that whenever a writer tries to fix Superman and get rid of something they don't like, some other creative team will come in and undo that. Get rid of all the non-Kal Kryptonians, someone else will bring it back, Retcon of his past as superboy and the legion, someone will retcon it back, retcon Henshaw, Manchester Black, Conduit, DOS, someone will retcon it back. The way I see it I don't particularly like Lex knowing Clark as a kid. If I had creative control, I just wouldn't focus on that detail instead of retconing it, so future writers who do want to do something with that have to jump through hoops to get there.
Anyway I don't think Superman's backstory now is all that much more confusing than Batman's. I think there was that bit where Bruce and Selena in rebirth can't agree on whether or not they met on the street or on a boat, that reminds me of that bit you just did (very funny btw, I think Supes literally called Dick Grayson the 'multiversal constant' recently before Reborn, or synonymous to that).

I think Superman's backstory is relatively straightforward, but it's all a laundry list of what stuff they tweaked around. Batman's is simpler because it's been tweaked a lot less by comparison.

I too prefer a Super'Verse that feels lived-in and I too feel the problem is that everyone tries to undo everyone else's work. For example, Henshaw recruited Metallo to be a part of his Superman Revenge Squad less than two years after Metallo had died helping Superman save the world from Vandal Savage in a story that the Reborn retrospective mildly referenced! That's my single biggest problem with Reborn's attempt to have their cake and eat it too, by the way- it requires that the New 52 happened, but in a highly different form, irreconcilable with the stories-as-published, with Jon running around growing up in the background. Had Reborn's timeline put the New 52 stories before the post-Crisis stories, that might've worked better! New 52 -> post-Crisis-> pre-Flashpoint - > Jon grows up. But I digress. It's not like it'd have been hard to make the new Metallo into John's brother Roger Corben or something, but instead we just have a continuity snarl that frustrates.

**FishyZombie** · 10-08-2017, 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by Adekis

I guess I consider all Superman retcons and reboots to be "tweaking stuff around while keeping the bones intact" at the end of the day...

The way I read it at the time, I never questioned that we were supposed to be reading Golden Age stories into the t-shirt and jeans gap, or Silver or Bronze Age stories into gaps at various points. Unlike after the '86 reboot, many old-school stories fit pretty neatly into those gaps, since elements like Superman's ridiculously fast interplanetary travel or the multiverse still existed. I'll cop to it though: there's definitely a huge number of Silver and Bronze Age stories that straight up don't work in those gaps, even though I think Morrison intends it to be read that way.
.

I can respect that, but here's where I'm coming from, just to clarify, was there evidence that implied that those golden and silver age stories happened? From my understanding all we really know that was canon in that era, are the new 52 stories themselves + Superman apparently died at some point, maybe killed by Doomsday, maybe not. For example, did N52 Superman ever say, "this reminds me of the time Mongul infected me with Black Mercy on my birthday" or "Hey Luthor, remember that time we had that fist fight in outer space, and a bunch of aliens named a planet after you?" you know, something like that? Or are you assuming they happened in your head canon, like theres a time skip and you can fit whatever you want so long as there isn't a contradiction (not that there's anything wrong with that). Because I think it was the latter so I just see it as a clean slate, and assume it's didn't happen unless there's evidence to suggest the contrary. Maybe there were evidence that some stuff happened, but probably not many. And I doubt were meant in a way that would inform Superman's character or his story moving forward.
Rebirth for me, feels far, far more lived in, to me, no, not because he has a 10 year old now, but because we know that a good chunk of stories from different eras of Superman matter in some capacity. They may not have happened the same way as originally published, the Kents weren't alive when Doomsday killed Supes, and while the new 52 stories that still happened, happened while he was raising a family, etc. mainstream comics are a revisionist narrative, I get it, that comes with the territory (which is something those that claim to feel betrayed or cheated by these kind of things need to realize). But I appreciate that some version of those stories happened and matter in that they actually inform Clark's character and his story going forward. That's where some of the fun of serialized storytelling comes from for me, not all of it, not even most of it, but a decent chunk of it.

**Stardust** · 10-08-2017, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by Adekis

The way I read it at the time, I never questioned that we were supposed to be reading Golden Age stories into the t-shirt and jeans gap, or Silver or Bronze Age stories into gaps at various points. Unlike after the '86 reboot, many old-school stories fit pretty neatly into those gaps, since elements like Superman's ridiculously fast interplanetary travel or the multiverse still existed. I'll cop to it though: there's definitely a huge number of Silver and Bronze Age stories that straight up don't work in those gaps, even though I think Morrison intends it to be read that way.

To me that never worked with the new52, because Golden Age Superman wasn't some hormonal, dumb, teenage brute like the N52 version. I know people like the comparison, and say that the Golden Age Superman was a bully, too, so it's ok for Morrison to write him that way, but for me the big difference was, that in the Golden Age his method mostly worked, while in the N52 it didn't work. Also Siegel and Shuster wrote from their own experience as being marginalized, while Grant Morrison didn't have that problem, so the whole tone is off.

**Kuwagaton** · 10-08-2017, 04:56 AM

I liked the character writing from the first half better than the second half, where he's more thoughtful and clever. It's not like a standard Superman, but that was the idea and it was fun while it lasted.

But I say first half like I'm referring to more than a year of stories, haha. What separates Morrison from Siegel and Byrne is his low output. If all you write is 18 issues to lead the whole new era, your Superman will fall short regardless of your talent. So we have a rather steep cliff as soon as you talk about depictions after the one and a half years on the one title.

**Netherman14** · 10-08-2017, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by Stardust

To me that never worked with the new52, because Golden Age Superman wasn't some hormonal, dumb, teenage brute like the N52 version. I know people like the comparison, and say that the Golden Age Superman was a bully, too, so it's ok for Morrison to write him that way, but for me the big difference was, that in the Golden Age his method mostly worked, while in the N52 it didn't work. Also Siegel and Shuster wrote from their own experience as being marginalized, while Grant Morrison didn't have that problem, so the whole tone is off.

What...?
huh__face_by_xtremeangler-d57ci50.gif

**Sacred Knight** · 10-08-2017, 09:10 AM

Who knows. Inaccurate adjectives for the New 52 Superman took on a life of their own and still haven't died off. Its hard to even consider some of it hyperbole because some of it is so wildly off the map incorrect.

**Netherman14** · 10-08-2017, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Stardust

To me that never worked with the new52, because Golden Age Superman wasn't some hormonal, dumb, teenage brute like the N52 version. I know people like the comparison, and say that the Golden Age Superman was a bully, too, so it's ok for Morrison to write him that way, but for me the big difference was, that in the Golden Age his method mostly worked, while in the N52 it didn't work. Also Siegel and Shuster wrote from their own experience as being marginalized, while Grant Morrison didn't have that problem, so the whole tone is off.

It more then worked for Nu52 Superman as well, the difference is. that Kal didn't like the fact his past (present to him at the time) rough-handed methods consistently and actively frightened good people alongside the evil ones all the same and made said good people suspicious of his intentions. it's why he toned down (emphasis on the toned down) his "bully other bullies" activities and started simply handing the law-breakers over to the authorities.

**Sacred Knight** · 10-08-2017, 09:40 AM

Damn, still miss this stuff.

I gotta admit, with revealing stuff like the Earth-M for Milestone and Vertigo coming back, I so wanted to hope a surprise reveal of something like an Earth-52, heh. A fool's hope, though.

**MeloDet** · 10-08-2017, 10:06 AM

Probably a little bit late here, but I wouldn't say I feel cheated. DC did what they felt they needed to to bring Superman sales back up and it seems to be have been a success. I'm not currently reading Superman, but that's more because of the specific status quo than because it's not New 52 Superman. The married with kids thing just isn't interesting to me, though I'd be able to deal with it if I got to see progress and that's where DC lost me. Despite their attempt at integrating New 52 Superman and his stories into the current status quo, none of the current stories felt like a continuation of N52 Superman's story; it's not a characterization thing, there's just too much of a jump in status quo. I'd have to go back and read a bunch of post-crisis to feel connected to the character again, and even then I would've liked to see them raise Jon from birth rather than jumping to 10 years old. It might be easier if I viewed Superman as a father figure character (as some do) in the first place, but I don't so him being a father is something I need to get to, I can't start there.

Who knows though, with Conner coming back I may check some books out again and that may bring me back into the fold, but I don't think that's likely.

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