Why do writers hate Cheetah, specifically Minerva?

[marhawkman]

2. Barbara is a Wonderverse villain (an entire franchise that gets dissed on a regular basis in the DCU, usually by the Batverse).

they do that with EVERYONE! The Bat-god is why I've started to hate DC's "street level" lineup in general. They're regularly written fighting people who can give Superman a real fight. It's absurd. Since you obviously want a non-Cheetah example.

[Nyssane]

they do that with EVERYONE! The Bat-god is why I've started to hate DC's "street level" lineup in general. They're regularly written fighting people who can give Superman a real fight. It's absurd. Since you obviously want a non-Cheetah example.

Huh, another female villain. Are we sensing a trend here?

[PyroTwilight]

I know folks like bringing that Livewire fight as PIS but Livewire literally had just escaped and didn't have time to charge up if I remember right. It was more as the battle showed, with Steph literally trying to pull back to not die, Stephanie lucking out.

Which is funny enough what many of Steph's wins have been in comics. It's part of her pluckyness.

[marhawkman]

I know folks like bringing that Livewire fight as PIS but Livewire literally had just escaped and didn't have time to charge up if I remember right. It was more as the battle showed, with Steph literally trying to pull back to not die, Stephanie lucking out.

Which is funny enough what many of Steph's wins have been in comics. It's part of her pluckyness.

Uh, no. Livewire had be sucking juice out of an electrical substation. They were fighting within a few yards of it! It may(I'm not sure) have gotten turned off during the fight, but Livewire had sucked up plenty of juice by then. It also had one of the most lame ways of "winning"... Steph splashed Livewire with water by somehow kicking a fire hydrant hard enough to break it. Flying kick or not, fire hydrants aren't that easy to break. To be honest a lot of wins vs Livewire, at least when it isn't Superman, basically the fight ends as soon as she gets wet... which is seemingly stupidly easy. We're talking about someone with superhuman reflexes here and writers keep showing her NOT dodge when she sees it coming? THAT is PIS all day long.

[PyroTwilight]

Uh, no. Livewire had be sucking juice out of an electrical substation. They were fighting within a few yards of it! It may(I'm not sure) have gotten turned off during the fight, but Livewire had sucked up plenty of juice by then. It also had one of the most lame ways of "winning"... Steph splashed Livewire with water by somehow kicking a fire hydrant hard enough to break it. Flying kick or not, fire hydrants aren't that easy to break. To be honest a lot of wins vs Livewire, at least when it isn't Superman, basically the fight ends as soon as she gets wet... which is seemingly stupidly easy. We're talking about someone with superhuman reflexes here and writers keep showing her NOT dodge when she sees it coming? THAT is PIS all day long.

Power loss by splash has been her weakness since creation. It's no more PIS than J'Onn getting defeated by fire. Which admittedly can get close to PIS. But that's simply been part of her weakness' since her origin in Superman: TaS.

[Rig]

Yes the walking list of overused clichés is one dimensional. Cheetah and Giganta are not without their faults but they actually feel like characters which is more than I can say for a character I might have thought was cool when I was an angsty 13 year old who thought Rob Liefeld was God’s Gift to comic fans. I don’t give a hoot how many times you show Grail curb stomping the League with no strategy or respect of the team’s abilities and skill sets. She’s a dimestore DBZ bad guy with none of the charm and this is me being polite.

Just calling character uninteresting doesn't make them one. You have to yet to provide factual evidence why Cheetah and Giganta are more interesting than Grail. The fact that people are coming with their own theories on how cheetah should be and her place in wonder verse says all you need to know about them. If they had solid foundation we wouldn't be discussing their role in wonder verse 70+ years later. What I said about Grail being the villain who can be big bad of Universe wide event had nothing to do with her power-level but you felt the need to mention it because you want cheetah to do the same but you know she will go back to getting knocked out by Catwoman, Batman, Steve trevor and Green Arrow. Grail did so much more than just stomping the league. She destroyed Darkseid who had absorbed powers of various super-powered characters with one shot and without even paying attention. Underrating Grail's feats isn't going to make cheetah look good.

With eye rolls and sighs of “you again?” Doomsday was a cheap plot device who was created for Death of Superman (a story which only exists because the writers didn’t want to do the Clark/Lois wedding. Any reason he has to exist began and ended with that one story.

Cheetah was created to be costumed thief who was motivated by jealousy. Only reason she is still around is because of nostalgia.

Yes I’m sure it will truly go down in the annuls of DC history alongside such classics like Amazons Attack, Rise of Arsenal, Lobdell’s Titans and Finch’s Wonder Woman.

Cheetah appeared in one of those Grail didn't .

I’ve seen good stories done with Giganta. Grail not so much.

Good stor(ies)? Does she even have one post crises story where she is big bad?

[Rig]

It remains to be seen how long Grail is going to last. Non-Kirby additions tend to not have much staying power. Just ask Grayven.

Cheetah is on the short list to be the villain of the sequel. I very much doubt Grail will be in it, whereas Cheetah was right next to Steppenwolf in that big spread of characters in that new DCEU intro.

Cheetah can't event carry one story arc on her own you expect her to be big bad of Wonder Woman movie? If she makes it in it ll be in the role of secondary villain.

[CRaymond]

Cheetah can't event carry one story arc on her own you expect her to be big bad of Wonder Woman movie? If she makes it in it ll be in the role of secondary villain.

EASILY.

Your hatred toward the character is both boring and interesting. I'd ask you to more fully explain why you feel that way, but I also don't anticipate any insights.

[Agent Z]

Just calling character uninteresting doesn't make them one.

You seriously don’t see the irony in you of all people saying this?

You have to yet to provide factual evidence why Cheetah and Giganta are more interesting than Grail.

I’ve explained how she’s a one dimensional plot device with uninteresting powers, a crappy first story to her name and lousy addition to two franchises.

The fact that people are coming with their own theories on how cheetah should be and her place in wonder verse says all you need to know about them.

This is a comic book forum. People discuss how they feel this and that character should be all the time. It isn’t applied solely to Cheetah or Giganta.

What I said about Grail being the villain who can be big bad of Universe wide event had nothing to do with her power-level but you felt the need to mention it because you want cheetah to do the same but you know she will go back to getting knocked out by Catwoman, Batman, Steve trevor and Green Arrow.

This was your first comment in this thread

As long as she is called cheetah and looks like one she is going to job. Having Wonder Woman struggle against her just to show how powerful cheetah is makes Wonder Woman look bad. Cheetah will never be taken seriously, she just doesn't have it in her. Same applies to Giganta, Silver swan, Psycho, Poison. I have hardly seen anyone talk about Dr poison in Wonder Woman movie, she was less relevant than ludendorff. She is not the villain you would associates with Wonder Woman.


Grail in her few appearances has shown to be more relevant than cheetah in her entire history. I don't understand why some fans get upset when cheetah and Giganta are taken out quickly. Having them fight Wonder Woman for more than few minutes makes Wonder Woman look bad.

Your entire criticism about Cheetah has been based solely around her power levels. Why should I not believe your comment about Grail being a big bad has the same basis?

Grail did so much more than just stomping the league. She destroyed Darkseid who had absorbed powers of various super-powered characters with one shot and without even paying attention.

See my point? If it isn’t about her power levels and feats, why mention this at all as your rebuttal?

Underrating Grail's feats isn't going to make cheetah look good.

I’m not underrating Grail’s feats. I’m pointing out feats alone do not a good character make. Again, you can show a character punking the League and their enemies all you like, if they don’t find the character interesting they won’t care and right now, Grail is not considered an interesting character outside of rumbles boards.

Cheetah was created to be costumed thief who was motivated by jealousy. Only reason she is still around is because of nostalgia.

Still got better stories under her belt than Doomsday or Grail.

Cheetah appeared in one of those Grail didn't .

Um, Cheetah was in none of those.

Good stor(ies)? Does she even have one post crises story where she is big bad?

George Perez’s run.

[SiegePerilous02]

Cheetah can't event carry one story arc on her own you expect her to be big bad of Wonder Woman movie? If she makes it in it ll be in the role of secondary villain.

Grail hasn't carried one either. She's been coasting along on her ties to daddy.

Cheetah has the first Bana arc in Perez. And while Rucka's second run didn't have a clear main villain, she still played a large role and was more fleshed out as a character than Grail

[marhawkman]

Power loss by splash has been her weakness since creation. It's no more PIS than J'Onn getting defeated by fire. Which admittedly can get close to PIS. But that's simply been part of her weakness' since her origin in Superman: TaS.

Yeah, and in TAS it wasn't as easy as spraying water in her general direction. Heck, in TAS more often than not getting her wet was only a minor power loss. Mostly because she was actively avoiding it. It's like with Superman and Kryptonite. People don't win fights against Supes just because they brought Kryptonite. More often than not he wins anyways. Why? Because he knows what his weakness is and how to counter it. Here, she fights like a total amateur who doesn't even know her own weakness.

The scale of Livewire's powers is pretty close to those of Superman or a Green Lantern. She has a list of abilities that're almost as long as Superman's.

The only way stuff like this fight makes sense is if you take into consideration her second weakness(which was really a later retcon) that got mentioned in Superman when she decided to reform. Namely that she sometimes gets "power drunk" and becomes disoriented after absorbing large amounts of energy.

[PyroTwilight]

Yeah, and in TAS it wasn't as easy as spraying water in her general direction. Heck, in TAS more often than not getting her wet was only a minor power loss. Mostly because she was actively avoiding it. It's like with Superman and Kryptonite. People don't win fights against Supes just because they brought Kryptonite. More often than not he wins anyways. Why? Because he knows what his weakness is and how to counter it. Here, she fights like a total amateur who doesn't even know her own weakness.

The scale of Livewire's powers is pretty close to those of Superman or a Green Lantern. She has a list of abilities that're almost as long as Superman's.

The only way stuff like this fight makes sense is if you take into consideration her second weakness(which was really a later retcon) that got mentioned in Superman when she decided to reform. Namely that she sometimes gets "power drunk" and becomes disoriented after absorbing large amounts of energy.

Oh I understand. But even in TaS that was pretty back and forth. Back in her first appearance just getting wet didn't even just depower her it actively pained her incredibly with the implication being the more power she had the more it actually hurt her to be wet, a very glass cannon sort of weakness.

As for power drunk though it mgiht've been expanded on in the comics she did tend to seem very power drunk even in the show. Almost like a junkie she'd race over to the most obvious spot with very little hesitation at least in Superman episodes. And she wasn't very subtle which made her pretty easy to track in the cartoon. But regardless I do understand that type of qualm. It's not all that different than say how often the Flash gets hit by soemthing that he or she could've easily seen coming. Everyone's mileage will vary on suspension of disbelief.


That being said as for the actual discussion of the thread it's why I always loved Cheetah and Diana's appearances in Secret Six. Gail really took them seriously.I loved Cheetah just slapping Bane away essentially. A beautiful appearance in that regard.

[marhawkman]

Compare that to her appearance in the Auctioneer story. There she not only thinks rationally most of the story, but she actually has the mental focus to seize control of the Auctioneer's giant communications array with her powers. It's almost like a different person than when she fought Batgirl...

[AmiMizuno]

One thing I think if she were to come up against Superman is due to her divinity and the fact she is a predator not even Superman should hear her. She should be able to surprise him

[Outside_85]

One thing I think if she were to come up against Superman is due to her divinity and the fact she is a predator not even Superman should hear her. She should be able to surprise him

Divinity should not be an excuse for ignoring other characters abilities.