Why do writers hate Cheetah, specifically Minerva?

[marhawkman]

Divinity should not be an excuse for ignoring other characters abilities.

Supernatural stealth.

[Mel Dyer]

As long as she is called cheetah and looks like one she is going to job. Having Wonder Woman struggle against her just to show how powerful cheetah is makes Wonder Woman look bad. Cheetah will never be taken seriously, she just doesn't have it in her. Same applies to Giganta, Silver swan, Psycho, Poison. I have hardly seen anyone talk about Dr poison in Wonder Woman movie, she was less relevant than ludendorff. She is not the villain you would associates with Wonder Woman.


Grail in her few appearances has shown to be more relevant than cheetah in her entire history. I don't understand why some fans get upset when cheetah and Giganta are taken out quickly. Having them fight Wonder Woman for more than few minutes makes Wonder Woman look bad.

Silver Swan (pre-Crisis or post), Doctor Psycho and Colonel Poison would all be top tier super-villains in the X-Men, Avengers or Spider-Man comics, by now, having been developed, over time. It's the wasteful editorial practices of the WW comic that have left them in the subpar condition that embarrasses WW fans, today.

And as much as I hate to climb in the troll room, with you, I...yes, except for Colonel Poison, ..I'm flat-out embarrassed by these super-villains and have been, for many years. In their present states, Giganta and most of the other Wonder-rogues make Wonder Woman look bad, standing, anywhere near them. Furthermore, I think they make WW fans look foolish for clamoring for their inclusion in stories, outside of the comic. Just the same, I champion these rogues on fan forums, like this one, because I believe in their untapped potential and never give up hope that some skilled writer, who feels as I do, will make them, first class bad guys.

This is a hope that most loyal WW fans share, and if you don't understand that, you're probably not one of us.

You, Rig...I'd say ..are painting with too broad a brush. Greg Rucka's last run proved that Veronica Cale, the Cheetah, Colonel Poison, Doctor Cyber and a Whoish Circe, at least, are first class super-villains, as good as any that Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Flash or the Justice League have faced, in their respective comics. This run, while not perfect, renewed my confidence that, in skilled, caring and inspired hands, WW villains, ..like Atomia, Queen Clea, Redbeard the Pirate, Kung, the Adjudicator, Aegeus, Bushmaster, Eviless Saturna, Cassandra the Mad, Inversion, Gundra, General Electric, White Magician, First Born and Nuclear can be classics.

That said, even I cannot deny that Grail is about the most respectable super-villain Wonder Woman has faced in any comic, since Darkseid, and we're lucky to finally get her in the WW comic. What happens from here on out, whether she sails or fails, is up to the fans, ..and that is, as it should be.

[Rig]

You seriously don’t see the irony in you of all people saying this?



I’ve explained how she’s a one dimensional plot device with uninteresting powers, a crappy first story to her name and lousy addition to two franchises.

You have explained nothing. Calling Grail uninteresting and plot device is not explaining.

This is a comic book forum. People discuss how they feel this and that character should be all the time. It isn’t applied solely to Cheetah or Giganta.

Fans do talk about what kind of stories they want to see their favourite characters in not what should be their role in specific hero's world. The fact that people are still trying to come up with their own theories where this particular character belongs and what this character represents says all you need to know.

This was your first comment in this thread

Your entire criticism about Cheetah has been based solely around her power levels. Why should I not believe your comment about Grail being a big bad has the same basis?

Relevance =/= raw power. Croc is much more powerful than joker but he isn't on same level when it comes to being relevant. Grail's relevancy comes from her connection to Wonder Woman and how she presented herself. She manipulated both sides in darkseid war to get what she wanted.

See my point? If it isn’t about her power levels and feats, why mention this at all as your rebuttal?

That's bonus to what she already is.

I’m not underrating Grail’s feats. I’m pointing out feats alone do not a good character make. Again, you can show a character punking the League and their enemies all you like, if they don’t find the character interesting they won’t care and right now, Grail is not considered an interesting character outside of rumbles boards.

Cheetah has neither. Cheetah is secondary villain who takes orders from other villains. Grail was the only one standing at the end of Darkseid war and she is the reason why anti-monitor is dead and darkseid is baby. She achieved more in one story than cheetah has in her entire history.

Still got better stories under her belt than Doomsday or Grail.

May be in bizarro world being beaten to pulp and left in puddle of blood and getting played by veronica is better than being big bad of the event story.

Um, Cheetah was in none of those.

She appeared when finches were writing the book. She came to paradise island to steal something then she ran into a trap and got captured.

George Perez’s run.

She was big bad of george perez's run?

[Rig]

Grail hasn't carried one either. She's been coasting along on her ties to daddy.

Cheetah has the first Bana arc in Perez. And while Rucka's second run didn't have a clear main villain, she still played a large role and was more fleshed out as a character than Grail

Cheetah got played by veronica who got played by demeios and phobos whereas Grail caused the death of Ultraman, Superwoman, Darkseid and Anti-monitor. Grail was the only villain left standing when dust cleared, she achieved more in one story compared what cheetah has done in her entire history.

Do you really see cheetah being able to manipulate events on such a big scale like what Grail did?

[Agent Z]

You have explained nothing. Calling Grail uninteresting and plot device is not explaining.

… It’s about as much explaining as you’ve done.

Fans do talk about what kind of stories they want to see their favourite characters in not what should be their role in specific hero's world. The fact that people are still trying to come up with their own theories where this particular character belongs and what this character represents says all you need to know.

Look around this forum. You’ll see similar conversations regarding Cheetah for damn near every character.

Relevance =/= raw power.

And Grail has only the latter, not the former.

That's bonus to what she already is.

Which is a whole big pile of nothing.

Cheetah has neither. Cheetah is secondary villain who takes orders from other villains. Grail was the only one standing at the end of Darkseid war and she is the reason why anti-monitor is dead and darkseid is baby. She achieved more in one story than cheetah has in her entire history.

Grail was taking orders from Myrina Black in her first appearance and is now taking orders from teen Drakseid in her current story. Who’s the secondary villain again? You can champion her accomplishments all you like but none of that makes her an interesting character.

May be in bizarro world being beaten to pulp and left in puddle of blood and getting played by veronica is better than being big bad of the event story.

Grail has not been the big bad of any story. She was a pawn in Darkseid War and is a pawn in this current story. Cheetah’s tale in Rucka’s run was well received and made her a sympathetic character audiences wanted to see more of. Grail has nothing to compare.

She was big bad of george perez's run?

For her own arc when she met Diana yes. Maybe you should read it.

[Agent Z]

Cheetah got played by veronica who got played by demeios and phobos whereas Grail caused the death of Ultraman, Superwoman, Darkseid and Anti-monitor. Grail was the only villain left standing when dust cleared, she achieved more in one story compared what cheetah has done in her entire history.

Do you really see cheetah being able to manipulate events on such a big scale like what Grail did?

Again, none of this actually makes her a good villain. All she did was get rid of villains audiences DID like.

[AmiMizuno]

She can do great things . Only If writers could use her right. This woman has been able to go toe to toe with Wonder Woman and her gets beaten by Greek arrow. This is what you could bad writing. Dc has never treated Diana or any of her rogue with respected in other books. We need a arc that can spread into all the books l. Why not the night of the we’re-cheetahs. Cheetah should be one of the fastest and strongest villains much like how Diana is.

[PyroTwilight]

Yep that's the fun of comics. Too often characters aren't as strong as they should be, or treated as such. Which can be explained away or ignored at times but the Wonder characters tend to really be hit hard when they are.

[AmiMizuno]

Anyone have an idea to should Cheetah can be a threat? She should have be able to kill Oliver

[Rig]

… It’s about as much explaining as you’ve done.

Hey I brought up Grail's accomplishments and her connection to Wonder Woman. Cheetah doesn't have anything on Grail's level.

Look around this forum. You’ll see similar conversations regarding Cheetah for damn near every character.

Yup, only on Wonder Woman forum where fans come up with theories on what is the role of this "x" character. When you fans instead of writers telling you what "x" is supposed to be then you know such character has weak foundation and no true purpose.

And Grail has only the latter, not the former.

She manipulated Anti-Monitor to kill Darkseid and then she used Anti-life equation powered Steve trevor to kill anti-monitor. She also resurrected Darkseid in the body of baby and controlled him. All these things had nothing to do with her physical powers.

Which is a whole big pile of nothing.

Grail's manipulation left many high-profile characters dead. What has cheetah done in comparison to that? Getting stomped by green arrow?

Grail was taking orders from Myrina Black in her first appearance and is now taking orders from teen Drakseid in her current story. Who’s the secondary villain again? You can champion her accomplishments all you like but none of that makes her an interesting character.

If she was taking orders from Myrina then Myrina would not have been surprised at what Grail was doing. Yes, Myrina had her plans but What Grail wanted wasn't the same as what Myrina wanted. Current story isn't over yet, whether Grail is someone's pawn or not remains to be seen.

Grail has not been the big bad of any story. She was a pawn in Darkseid War and is a pawn in this current story. Cheetah’s tale in Rucka’s run was well received and made her a sympathetic character audiences wanted to see more of. Grail has nothing to compare.

If Grail was pawn then who was controlling her? She manipulated Anti monitor into killing Darkseid and some other characters got killed by anti-monitor. She used anti life powered steve to kill anti monitor and she also one-shot superwoman and her own mother. When dust cleared she was the only villain left standing. Grail played everyone including her own mother whereas Cheetah got played by Cale who also did not achieve anything significant. In other words cheetah got played by underachiever. Only people who liked cheetah are ones who already liked her. Cheetah gained no new fans from Rucka's run. Even Rucka doesn't consider her Wonder Woman's arch-nemesis. Cheetah is simply a joke character. Many people have hard taking her seriously, even comic creators are making fun of how silly she is.

For her own arc when she met Diana yes. Maybe you should read it

Meh.

[Rig]

The reason why I m comparing cheetah to Grail is because Grail is newcomer and she has achieved much more than cheetah. I could have compared cheetah to Ares or Circe but that would have made cheetah look even more pathetic. Ares is villain of Wonder Woman's two solo movies. Circe is master manipulator who has caused universe wide conflicts and when it comes to physical fights she has proven herself to be tougher opponent than cheetah. Cheetah takes orders from other characters who aren't big shots either. Cheetah is also mentally and physically weaker, She is always destined to play second fiddle and never get ahead.

She just doesn't have it in her to be big player in DC universe.

[AmiMizuno]

THat's the wrong thing to say it's just the writers haven't or don't want her to have a big player in the DCU. Also RIg you can't hold on to Grail since it's in the nature of DC to have any new villains to be gone. So sorry but she isn't going to last long most likely. Very few new villains last long in Diana's myths.

[Nyssane]

Cheetah takes orders from other characters who aren't big shots either.

Who exactly are these other characters?

[SiegePerilous02]

Hey I brought up Grail's accomplishments and her connection to Wonder Woman. Cheetah doesn't have anything on Grail's level.

Diana and Barbara were very close friends, and Diana blames herself for the curse that befell Barbara Ann.

Grail is the daughter of an Amazon whom Diana doesn't even know who slept with Darkseid. There's an Amazon connection, but other than that Grail is just some psycho plot device that doesn't mean anything to Diana. Her accomplishments consist of gratuitously killing other characters to juice up daddy, who is the real star of the show.

Yup, only on Wonder Woman forum where fans come up with theories on what is the role of this "x" character. When you fans instead of writers telling you what "x" is supposed to be then you know such character has weak foundation and no true purpose.

You must not visit the Batman or Superman forums then.

Grail's manipulation left many high-profile characters dead. What has cheetah done in comparison to that? Getting stomped by green arrow?

Death is meaningless in comic books. Darkseid was already on the road back to life before the story even wrapped up.
How many long lasting deaths of major characters have been as a result of Lex or Sinestro's actions?

Grail played everyone including her own mother whereas Cheetah got played by Cale who also did not achieve anything significant. In other words cheetah got played by underachiever. Only people who liked cheetah are ones who already liked her. Cheetah gained no new fans from Rucka's run. Even Rucka doesn't consider her Wonder Woman's arch-nemesis. Cheetah is simply a joke character. Many people have hard taking her seriously, even comic creators are making fun of how silly she is.

She gained no new fans from the run? What, did you ask every single person who read it?
Many of the reviews for the title had particular praise for her arc. Grace Randolph, in her prediction video for WW2 villains, gushed about Rucka's depictions of Cale, Circe and her in particular. She's one of the most popular choices for the next film over on SHH! at least.

Frank Cho made fun of her. That must mean everyone hates her. Rucka, Johns, Morrison and DeLiz don't count anymore because Cho graced us with his funny drawing. Whoopee.

The reason why I m comparing cheetah to Grail is because Grail is newcomer and she has achieved much more than cheetah. I could have compared cheetah to Ares or Circe but that would have made cheetah look even more pathetic. Ares is villain of Wonder Woman's two solo movies. Circe is master manipulator who has caused universe wide conflicts and when it comes to physical fights she has proven herself to be tougher opponent than cheetah. Cheetah takes orders from other characters who aren't big shots either. Cheetah is also mentally and physically weaker, She is always destined to play second fiddle and never get ahead.

Ares is indeed the most prolific one right now, but remember that he is also cited as being one of the weakest aspects of an otherwise very well received film. So is that really a "win"? Keep in mind that we're not exactly swimming in great Ares stories either, and the most interesting recent takes (Azzarello and Rucka) didn't even make him an antagonist.

Circe fares the best out of all WW villains...but she still doesn't have much to brag about. Minerva's stories in the Perez run were just straight up better. Circe may have been a more powerful menace, but Barbara was a better written character. Circe's motivation for hating the Amazons and attacking Diana didn't make a whole lot of sense, and her last arc was a bloated crossover. She later starred in Amazons Attack!, which is just awful, and also not even the villain of that story because Granny Goodness was. Other than that, she and Barbara do pretty much equally well in the other post-Crisis runs until OYL happened.

Who exactly are these other characters?

All I can personally think of are Deimos/Phobos and Cale. The former two manipulate events that lead to her apoptheosis, and the latter pretty much blackmails her into becoming Cheetah again. But it was really Barbara's own personal failings that lead to her to "sacrifice" herself to Godwatch when she didn't really need to. After that Cale tried to boss her around on the island by telling her to open the gate, and Cheetah was all "lol what, how do you propose I do that genius?" before turning on her entirely in the end. She wasn't really a minion to anybody. The run in general featured the villains trying to manipulate and back stab each other, and none of them got what they wanted.

[Awonder]

Cheetah got played by veronica who got played by demeios and phobos whereas Grail caused the death of Ultraman, Superwoman, Darkseid and Anti-monitor. Grail was the only villain left standing when dust cleared, she achieved more in one story compared what cheetah has done in her entire history.

Do you really see cheetah being able to manipulate events on such a big scale like what Grail did?

Even if I agreed that Cheetah isn't likely to manipulate events on a scale of Darkseid War, so what? Could Two Face do that? Does that make him any less interesting?

Accomplishments and achievements are only part of what makes a character.