Why nostalgia truly stops short of the 90's (IMO)

[donpricetag]

I got into the books via the X-Men animated series. I suspect that’s the story with millions of other fans, readers and non-readers alike. When we started reading, the show emulated the books, and the books stayed pretty similar throughout the 90s. Not much changed from X-Men #1 in 92’ until about 98’, after the show went off of the air. It was pretty apparent as not too much later the costumes started to drastically change, moving away from the Jim Lee designs that carried them for years and kept the characters recognizable to new readers, an era that actually birthed new readers, opposed to now.

Since the end of the 90s, we’ve seen something of a backlash towards the era. Writer is shunned, the artists are mocked, characters are ignored or mutilated. Goodness forbid fans call it what it is, current creators will criticize you as if they don’t want your money. For the longest time, comics has been a particular type of “boy’s club”. We’ve seen a forced push of change, but it’s not really as genuine as some would want you to think. The people calling the shots are still of that “boy’s club” and aren’t doing anything that can’t be reversed for the sake of the bottom-line. That’s the core of the issues when it comes to why we don’t see too many 90’s characters and stories revisited. There were a whole lot of folk that got excited when we started to get images for ResurrXion, but that ended being nothing but 70/80s era tropes packaged in 90s era titles and concepts.

I just turned 34. When I started reading, I was 9 or 10 years old. By the time the 90s ended I was half-way through high school (graduated in 2002). This means, my entire formative years were influenced by the era and by the characters within that era. I was a Gambit/ Rogue fan (read the Gestalt Arc when it was still new!), I was around when Generation-X was new, I remember Legion Quest and AoA as they debuted, I saw the dawn of Image and Wildstorm comics, I recall an armored Batman and a dead Superman, I collected X-cutioners Song, and followed Operation: Zero Tolerance. Were the stories perfect? Gosh no, but they had heart and adventure, and yes; EXPLOSIONS. Lots and lots of explosions. They weren’t preaching politics or social issues, at least not as brashly.

Here’s the turn. The current crop of creators in charge of the X-Men is all over 40. Most are so much past 40, they don’t feel comfortable even telling you that they are (I find that odd, I mean who cares?). Nothing wrong with that, but it shows you where their interests are why when they try to relate or talk about current social issues it comes off as ham-fisted. Not to say young writers would be better because they aren’t. Marvel is proving that. They lack experience. But Digress. But when it comes to character focus, they tend to gravitate towards what they know. And because of their age, that which they know is mostly from the 70 and 80s era. Classic Claremont. What the 90s were to me, the 80s and beyond were to them. The only 90s era characters that have gotten any real run are those that existed in 80s that got 90s makeovers (ie Psylocke, Cable, Archangel etc).

I’m not saying all the creators over the years have been hold-outs, but the ones that have any real power to call shots have. The few blips of younger-crop writers were either acolytes of the fans of 80s material or had their runs severely hampered and controlled by edicts handed down by editors being led by the same “boy’s club” members. Because if you’re trying to break into the big comic’s company right now or during the last 10 years and proclaim your love of the 90s, good luck getting your foot in the door. It’s sad because while the 90s did usher the “bubble pop”, something the comics industry of the time create, not the fans or characters, it was also the time the medium saw the most growth. I’d contribute that to how comic book based media was on TV and it wasn’t mind melt dribble we see in Teen Titans Go! Or very the childish art-styles we got in Batman the Brave and the Bold or the Green Lantern series (the art styles made most potential viewers ignore the shows). All the shows held a more mature presentation that appealed to kids and adults alike.

At this point, all I can hope for is that eventually, the next wave of writers will have different leadership that will allow them to explore their own interests a bit more. To be honest, by now the turn over should have occurred already. The younger crop of writers is being kept at bay, mostly because older writers just won’t bow out. Can’t blame them, who wants to lose a job? And again, it’s a certain group because there are tons of writers from the 90s that want to come back but can’t break back in. Twitter has allowed me to get in touch with several creators closer to my age in terms of their fandom. Without being explicit they’ll tell you, they just aren’t allowed to write or focus on certain characters for a plethora of reasons. The comic industry is small and insular. Once you’re let in, it’s easy to get kicked out. Because of this, creators are less willing to rock the boat or even push an idea past receiving a “no” from the higher ups. There’s nothing wrong with the 70-80s eras but I really miss the characters I grew up with. There is space for both, but wouldn’t be able to tell with so many duplicated character-types sucking up panel time. Just my view, I’m sure not everyone will agree. But I look forward to seeing what’s to come… I guess.

[Hizashi]

I got into the books via the X-Men animated series. I suspect that’s the story with millions of other fans, readers and non-readers alike. When we started reading, the show emulated the books, and the books stayed pretty similar throughout the 90s. Not much changed from X-Men #1 in 92’ until about 98’, after the show went off of the air. It was pretty apparent as not too much later the costumes started to drastically change, moving away from the Jim Lee designs that carried them for years and kept the characters recognizable to new readers, an era that actually birthed new readers, opposed to now.

Since the end of the 90s, we’ve seen something of a backlash towards the era. Writer is shunned, the artists are mocked, characters are ignored or mutilated. Goodness forbid fans call it what it is, current creators will criticize you as if they don’t want your money. For the longest time, comics has been a particular type of “boy’s club”. We’ve seen a forced push of change, but it’s not really as genuine as some would want you to think. The people calling the shots are still of that “boy’s club” and aren’t doing anything that can’t be reversed for the sake of the bottom-line. That’s the core of the issues when it comes to why we don’t see too many 90’s characters and stories revisited. There were a whole lot of folk that got excited when we started to get images for ResurrXion, but that ended being nothing but 70/80s era tropes packaged in 90s era titles and concepts.

I just turned 34. When I started reading, I was 9 or 10 years old. By the time the 90s ended I was half-way through high school (graduated in 2002). This means, my entire formative years were influenced by the era and by the characters within that era. I was a Gambit/ Rogue fan (read the Gestalt Arc when it was still new!), I was around when Generation-X was new, I remember Legion Quest and AoA as they debuted, I saw the dawn of Image and Wildstorm comics, I recall an armored Batman and a dead Superman, I collected X-cutioners Song, and followed Operation: Zero Tolerance. Were the stories perfect? Gosh no, but they had heart and adventure, and yes; EXPLOSIONS. Lots and lots of explosions. They weren’t preaching politics or social issues, at least not as brashly.

Here’s the turn. The current crop of creators in charge of the X-Men is all over 40. Most are so much past 40, they don’t feel comfortable even telling you that they are (I find that odd, I mean who cares?). Nothing wrong with that, but it shows you where their interests are why when they try to relate or talk about current social issues it comes off as ham-fisted. Not to say young writers would be better because they aren’t. Marvel is proving that. They lack experience. But Digress. But when it comes to character focus, they tend to gravitate towards what they know. And because of their age, that which they know is mostly from the 70 and 80s era. Classic Claremont. What the 90s were to me, the 80s and beyond were to them. The only 90s era characters that have gotten any real run are those that existed in 80s that got 90s makeovers (ie Psylocke, Cable, Archangel etc).

I’m not saying all the creators over the years have been hold-outs, but the ones that have any real power to call shots have. The few blips of younger-crop writers were either acolytes of the fans of 80s material or had their runs severely hampered and controlled by edicts handed down by editors being led by the same “boy’s club” members. Because if you’re trying to break into the big comic’s company right now or during the last 10 years and proclaim your love of the 90s, good luck getting your foot in the door. It’s sad because while the 90s did usher the “bubble pop”, something the comics industry of the time create, not the fans or characters, it was also the time the medium saw the most growth. I’d contribute that to how comic book based media was on TV and it wasn’t mind melt dribble we see in Teen Titans Go! Or very the childish art-styles we got in Batman the Brave and the Bold or the Green Lantern series (the art styles made most potential viewers ignore the shows). All the shows held a more mature presentation that appealed to kids and adults alike.

At this point, all I can hope for is that eventually, the next wave of writers will have different leadership that will allow them to explore their own interests a bit more. To be honest, by now the turn over should have occurred already. The younger crop of writers is being kept at bay, mostly because older writers just won’t bow out. Can’t blame them, who wants to lose a job? And again, it’s a certain group because there are tons of writers from the 90s that want to come back but can’t break back in. Twitter has allowed me to get in touch with several creators closer to my age in terms of their fandom. Without being explicit they’ll tell you, they just aren’t allowed to write or focus on certain characters for a plethora of reasons. The comic industry is small and insular. Once you’re let in, it’s easy to get kicked out. Because of this, creators are less willing to rock the boat or even push an idea past receiving a “no” from the higher ups. There’s nothing wrong with the 70-80s eras but I really miss the characters I grew up with. There is space for both, but wouldn’t be able to tell with so many duplicated character-types sucking up panel time. Just my view, I’m sure not everyone will agree. But I look forward to seeing what’s to come… I guess.

I think you've got an interesting idea; I think we can all agree that Marvel isn't exactly healthy, but I never considered this as a possibility as to why.

[Likewater]

You mean the Artist Creator Joe Quesada led backlash to the 90's we all know it, Alex Alonzo is of a similar mind. What is funny they just recreated everything they rail against the 90's about in substance not style, only focused on the Avengers and pulling in the whole MU not simply the X-books.

Onslaught and Age of Apocalypse were wide scales crossovers, but Zero Tolerance, Phalanx Covenant and Executioners Song were X-title crossovers in the same vain as X-tinction Agenda. I always hope the current head of marvel will grow up and realize their artistic hypocrisy but if they don't c'est la vie.

[donpricetag]

Rogue/Gambit and Legion books? Two very heavy 90's concepts (I know Legion debuted in the 80s but he was basically forgotten until Legion Quest/AoA). I'm kind of shocked about the Rogue/Gambit news, but we all knew they were bringing Legion back eventually.

[Wiccan]

I think one of the problems is, we did had new ideas, from Morrison and beyond, until a certain point. Thing is that a lot of people didn't liked the direction they went. The long Scemma reigh, M-Day, Hope Summers, Schism. But some people can't quite understand that those plots and status quo were "bad" or something(in their opinion, of course) for what they were rather than because they "deviated"(to say so) the X-Men from what they were. So they think that the way of "fix" all of that is to revert things to what they were before. A pretty regresive "Make X-Men great again!" kind of attitude. I see that a lot on X-Men Gold. A lot of readers, sending latters, about how they finally have the X-Men as they should be back. X-Men as a family! X-Men as superheroes! As rehashing the old stories from the '80s... And they think that's the solution instead of coming up with something new and original... Yeah, Claremont's days may have been perfect, but they were perfect for what they were, and that magic won't come back.

[Jaddor]

I don't think its nostalgia.

Legion : he has a tv show that did well

Rogue and Gambit: one hell of a beloved and polarizing couple readers can never let go off or get enough off and talk about with love and hate

Marvel is just using their heads which is ironic because they are also trying to kill xmen too. got love the paradox marvel is in.

the bigger prblem now s there will be a gambit movie with no rogue. this is where I call fox out for some of the messess in the xmen movies.

[FUBAR007]

Here’s the turn. The current crop of creators in charge of the X-Men is all over 40. Most are so much past 40, they don’t feel comfortable even telling you that they are (I find that odd, I mean who cares?). Nothing wrong with that, but it shows you where their interests are why when they try to relate or talk about current social issues it comes off as ham-fisted. Not to say young writers would be better because they aren’t. Marvel is proving that. They lack experience. But Digress. But when it comes to character focus, they tend to gravitate towards what they know. And because of their age, that which they know is mostly from the 70 and 80s era. Classic Claremont. What the 90s were to me, the 80s and beyond were to them. The only 90s era characters that have gotten any real run are those that existed in 80s that got 90s makeovers (ie Psylocke, Cable, Archangel etc).

I'm a bit older than you--37, started reading comics in 1990--and I agree this is most definitely a thing. The driving creative personalities at Marvel over the past decade and a half have tended to be Bronze Age/early-to-mid 80s fans. For them, the status quo of franchises and characters in that era is what feels right to them, biasing them accordingly.

The 90s are most definitely underrated today. Yes, there was a lot of dreck, but there was no shortage of good stuff.

[FUBAR007]

I think one of the problems is, we did had new ideas, from Morrison and beyond, until a certain point. Thing is that a lot of people didn't liked the direction they went. The long Scemma reigh, M-Day, Hope Summers, Schism. But some people can't quite understand that those plots and status quo were "bad" or something(in their opinion, of course) for what they were rather than because they "deviated"(to say so) the X-Men from what they were. So they think that the way of "fix" all of that is to revert things to what they were before. A pretty regresive "Make X-Men great again!" kind of attitude.

On an established franchise, unless we're talking about a full reboot, the new needs to make sense with the old. Yes, in order for an X-Men story to truly feel like an X-Men story, there are certain themes and elements that have to be included. YMMV as to what particular themes and elements those are, but there's only so much stuff you can change before it's not X-Men anymore, but something else.

I think the issue with Morrison is that he changed too much too fast. He didn't slow down and explore the consequences of the changes he made. He just went on to his next big, mad idea. Consequently, to a significant number of us long-time X-Men fans, his changes didn't make sense and felt like disruption for its own sake. Spectacle, not story.

More broadly, the problem with the X-Men comics franchise is that, for years, seemingly no one's been playing the role of plotmaster/grand architect that Morrison, Claremont, and Bob Harras used to. There's no overarching narrative, no long-term structure to it all. Just middle-of-the-road, general purpose superhero stories ticking over, punctuated by annual or semi-annual big events.

[mbm721]

I agree with a lot of what the OP and others have posted. I'm around the same age, 32, started reading early 1991, 1st grade. Really helped me learn to read.

The 90s weren't all bad. Especially 91-96/7. I remember talking a break in late middle school, checked in a bit in high school. I was intrigued with x-trend x-men new x-men Morrison run and ultimate x-men by Millar. But getting to a comic shop, as local bookstores that sold comics on a spinner rack closed, and having little disposable income as an early teen, were factors to stop me from reading and buying all the time. The developing trade paperback market helped me stay current when I would check in at borders books or Barnes and noble, during late high school and through early college, when I started collecting full time again.

The x-books definetly changed from the 90s and animated dominated status quo to the post movie/Morrison era of the 21st century. I don't know if for better or worse, as I love a lot from both eras. The 80s/90s is my fave because of the more family aspect.

I feel the school portion of the movies made the comics less family based and more teen drama with too many teen characters. Not saying the x-men aren't about drama or teenagers, cuz I love a lot of the new x-men academy x cast. The 5 lights and beyond, not so much.

[Innocent Bystander]

I keep hearing how many people came to the X-men through the Animated Series, and the anecdotal evidence is definitely there. I am curious how much it actually happened, given that the series debut (1992) is right before the beginning of the decline of comics (per Wikipedia, the speculator boom went bust in 1993). Chris Claremont left the titles back in 1991, and then Jim Lee ran off a few issues later to help found Image. Readership of the comic peaked before the Animated Series came out, and the industry was collapsing while it was airing.

Obviously many people picked up the comics after TAS or the movies, but it doesn't seem like it matched the people who were leaving the books behind.

[mbm721]

I keep hearing how many people came to the X-men through the Animated Series, and the anecdotal evidence is definitely there. I am curious how much it actually happened, given that the series debut (1992) is right before the beginning of the decline of comics (per Wikipedia, the speculator boom went bust in 1993). Chris Claremont left the titles back in 1991, and then Jim Lee ran off a few issues later to help found Image. Readership of the comic peaked before the Animated Series came out, and the industry was collapsing while it was airing.

Obviously many people picked up the comics after TAS or the movies, but it doesn't seem like it matched the people who were leaving the books behind.

Well, X-Men #1 was the peak in the fall of 1991 with about 8 million issues sold. Best single issue ever sold. This definetly influenced the look and tone of the 92 animated series.

I'm not sure I understand your first question but despite declining sales the animated show, and tv as a medium in general reaches far more people than print media. Even with the comic losing readers, fans of the show were buying comics, cards, toys of the x-men. They were that hot in the early 90s.

10 years later, and a movie didn't increase sales. It created more comic book movies. And more people get exposure through movies and don't buy the comics. Different mediums, a lot of choices to spend $ on. The comic industry as a whole is in decline and has been for a long time.

[donpricetag]

I think the reason comics are in decline is much simpler. People aren't, especially young people, aren't reading as much anymore. Point blank period. And comics went into decline in the 90s not due to people not reading but shady inflation tactics practiced by all the major comic companies. They killed themselves. They produced way more product than they were able to sell in hopes of dooping customers into purchasing "investments". Valuable comics are valuable because they are rare. When there is a hundred thousand of the copies floating around, it's barely worth the 3d, gold leaf paper it's printed on.

[Bafflement]

Yes, fall-off in sale numbers is definitely in large part due to changes in the way people consume media, as well as shifts in pricing and target demographics. Marvel just exacerbated the problem with their overinvestment in gimmicky sales techniques, the same thing they've been doing in recent years.

Age is a factor in the writer issues, but it's not the only one and younger writers coming in aren't necessarily any better at knowing the material. In fact, "the nineties should be ignored" seems to have become a bit of a self-reinforcing meme at Marvel: newer editors and writers coming in were encouraged to skip over most of the period by a few loud voices, and now they in turn pass on the same advice to other arrivals at Marvel. Of course, this just means that plenty of perfectly good storytelling and continuity is missed, while the real problems of the period (executive meddling, staff turn-over and sales gimmicks) are making a big resurgence.

[donpricetag]

Wow nice insight. I liked the angle you took there. It really is "ignore the 90s stuff but let's put out a bunch of nonsensical #1 issues with special paper, there's no way that'll backfire!" You know, like your flagship titles selling under 40k... Consistently. While your detractors get three times that on YouTube as they lambast your company.