Perez #1 Discussion

[Awonder]

Do I blame Hippolyta for Heracles assaulting her? No.

That's good to hear.

Do I blame Hippolyta for Heracles failing in her mission of peace? Yes.

So, she's in good company then, because Christ failed, too. As did Buhda, Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., etc, etc - pick any religion, philosophy, ideology, name any individual from any time period, then pick up a newspaper in any country. They all failed. Every single one of them. Even in fiction. Why? "The choice each must make for themselves - something no hero will ever defeat."

And unlike almost all women who have been confronted by a figure like Heracles, Hippolyta does not go into that meeting without power. She is capable, skilled, and most importantly knows what sort of situation she is facing. She has time to prepare. And she isn't going out there to avoid being assaulted as her primary goal - she goes out there to stop a war.

You're right that she has more time to prepare, time that most real victims do not get to have. So? That assumes she could prepare some way to dissuade Heracles from his chosen intent. Is it possible? Sure. Especially in fiction. But, the sad reality is that there is no sure fire way to talk someone out of what they choose to do.

Or does she?

"Now, I ask you to end this. I have no wish to harm you!" This is after he brought an army to her door. After he chooses to initiate a physical attack. She never even uses the sharp edges of her weapons to cause him harm. That is not someone looking for a fight.

Again, examining her words to Heracles and linking them with Athena's summation a short time later that the Amazons had become "...bitter and corrupt...", it looks very much to me like Hippolyta goes out there with a least part of her mind spoiling for a fight. She and the Amazons might not all express the Amazon Arella's idea of just killing him as an example out loud, but if Perez [via Athena] is to be believed then they all feel it at some level. Because Athena is not just speaking to Hippolyta in generalizations, she is also addressing this assessment to the Amazon queen personally.

[And can I just add, as a quick aside here, that this is not how I would recommend counseling a person in Hippolyta's position immediately after the event. Also I think any clear thinking person could have foreseen the Amazons' reaction when they were liberated. Perez writing is amazing, but in hindsight now without flaws]

Care to explain why you seem to value so highly what Athena has to say here when A) you admit her approach is flawed, and B) you continue to ignore what both Hera and Heracles himself had to say in issue #14?

So moving forward on the premise that she does have a certain level of resentment towards him, who is responsible for her choice of how she reacts to that. You have been pretty clear that the individual controls their own choices. If she chooses to meet aggression with aggression [albeit passive aggression in her case] then she has to own that as her own choice.

Would you say "irked" is akin to "resentment"? I would. Now, you get irked by words about a comic book from someone thousands of miles away who isn't trying to harm you. She, and her sisters, have been repeatedly "hunted" by people looking to kill, rape, and enslave them. I think a little "resentment" on her part is understandable.

Of course, I don't entirely agree with your argument in that area because in the real world nobody's actions in a social setting are independent of those around them. Social interactions, except in the case of true psychopaths and sociopaths, are a constant back and forth, a series of causes and effects based on the stimuli we receive from others.

I never said actions occur completely independent of what's going on, but, it's bad ideology and flawed science to misuse words like "cause." "She made me do it" simply isn't factual.

And regardless of what you may have said about control, there is such a thing as being able to foretell how a person will "reasonably react". You, me, and everyone else in the world [real and fictional] constantly adjust their behavior towards others based on how we expect them to react.

And, yet, all those people still choose their own actions. Thank you, again, for having done such a wonderful job demonstrating this in this thread.

If I insult my wife in a way I know is going to make her angry, its not all on her if she gets angry. I contributed to that situation. It's her choice about whether she gives me the cold shoulder or hits me with a frying pan, but it would be naive of me to think I had nothing to do with the situation as it unfolds.

Even your example here demonstrates my point. Sure, you can say things to upset others (e.g., your wife), but, how she chooses to respond is still her choice.

Again, Athena makes the Amazon mission clear - you were supposed to make the world a better place. Instead, Hippolyta has allowed herself to sink down to Heracles level of trading insult for insult.

Um, no. The funniest part about you bringing up CBR guidelines of decorum is that I don't see how what Hippolyta has to say would even get her banned. She doesn't call Heracles, the person, a fool; she refers to his intent to "war upon us" as "foolish." Wouldn't you agree that starting a war just because some king told you to is foolish? Even in using a common phrase, "brute strength," she does not refer to him as a brute; she's praising him.

Conflict immediately follows,

Because Heracles chose conflict.

as anyone as smart as Hippolyta who has spent about thirty seconds listening to Heracles bluster might reasonably expect

So, everyone should surrender whenever someone blusters? That's your solution?

Right there! The last expression on her face to me is NOT the look of someone who has had everything go according to plan. It's "Really? OMG, I can't believe it!"

It's armed conflict, when does that ever have everything go according to plan? Only in fiction.

Her offer here for him to surrender or die is not a great idea either, in my opinion. First, she says that the choice is his but by your own argument it is actually hers. Regardless of what he might say, the decision to kill or not will be on her shoulders.

And, did she kill him? No. She could have, but chose not to, at least, giving him more of a choice than he gave her. In the U.S., and many other countries, she would have been justified in killing him right there without giving him a choice.

But more importantly, its a bad choice because there really is no telling how he is going to react. War now depends entirely, it would seem, on a man who has serious anger management issues making a good decision. Something he hasn't done yet.

No matter what she says, there's no telling how he is going to react. Why blame her for him making bad decisions?

Now maybe Hippolyta would not have killed him anyway... But in terms of showing him that the intentions of the Amazons are truly about peace, it would be incredibly powerful.

And her not killing the man that attacked her is not incredibly powerful? She doesn't use any weapons the first time he attacks. She doesn't use sharp edges the second time he attacks. Didn't you just say he makes bad decisions, but she should go out of her way to give him her weapons, too?

But we will never know. What we do know is that Hippolyta had forewarning that this confrontation was coming, experience as a leader, and time to plan for how to get Heracles to listen to her about the Amazons wanting peace, not war.

So? We've all had lots of time to prepare, but, no one in the entire world has been able to get North Korea to stop threatening war. NO ONE.

Heracles choices about how he reacts to their encounter might remain his own,

Might? Might?

... but I think that what Perez is showing us here is that she has not made good choices of her own.

Sure, couldn't we all make better choices, especially with the luxury of hindsight and, more so, fiction? But, any less than perfect word choices by her do not cause Heracles' actions. Heracles' actions are caused by Heracles' choices. He could have chosen to not attack, right?

[brettc1]

Again I think you largely miss my point.

Hera and Heracles are talking about him. Atheba is talking about the Amazons. So it really comes down to do you, like Hippolyta, accept Athena's words as truth.

I do, and I think Perez gives us ample evidence. When Heracles is thrown, Hippolyta points out to him the Amazons are laughing at him. In other words, he is a joke. Offering not to harm him in that moment is not an act only of mercy, but condescension.
.
Her CHOICE of the word foolish id equally ill considered from someone who has had time to prepare and the chance to appraise her opposition. Wasteful would have bern better, or even "mistake for both of us". Asking him to follow her lead is tantamount to asking for his surrender when what she should be asking is the chance to work with him.

If we are going to relate this to Science, the most current research about effect sizes in student growth are that one of the MAJOR factors is the relationship between student and teacher.

Heracles comes into the meeting with the predisposition that their relationship will be adversarial. Hippolyta might not be as blunt about it, but her words indicate to me she seems to see it as superior to inferior, which feeds into his assessment [ and Ares scheme]. Its a mark of the bitterness Athena identifies.


Edit : oh and this historical figured you nentioned above didnt fail because they actually got people to listen and change their minds. Hippolyta gets nowhere at all. Which of course is why they need Diana, who will surpass her mother in this arena.

[Awonder]

Again you largely miss the point.

Miss the point or don't agree with it? Or maybe have points of my own?

Edit- Your general point that Hippolyta could has said things better is valid. My point is A) nothing she said comes anywhere close to fighting words, and B) she doesn't cause his behavior.

Hera and Heracles are talking about him.

Which you continue to ignore. Heracles helmself all but says that he did not respect Hippolyta then, that he wasn't going to listen to her. It was only "time," eons later, that he gained that respect. He changed. But, you still refuse to acknowledge this?

Athena is talking about the Amazons. So it really comes down to do you, like Hippolyta, accept Athena's words as truth.

Oh, no, the Amazons resent being "hunted"? What a horrible failure (says the goddess on high who fails to be on the ground helping bring about this peace she orders others to do).

I do, and I think Perez gives us ample evidence. When Heracles is thrown, Hippolyta points out to him the Amazons are laughing at him. In other words, he is a joke. Offering not to harm him in that moment is not an act only of mercy, but condescension.

Do you attack everyone who laughs at you?

Her CHOICE of the word foolish id equally ill considered from someone who has had time to prepare and the chance to appraise her opposition. Wasteful would have bern better, or even "mistake for both of us". Asking him to follow her lead is tantamount to asking for his surrender when what she should be asking is the chance to work with him.

Would you start a war over the word "foolish"? And does Heracles not acknowledge that he has a "ruler"? Does he enslave that ruler? No. Isn't that evidence that Heracles is capable of having someone "lead" him?

If we are going to relate this to Science, the most current research about effect sizes in student growth are that one of the MAJOR factors is the relationship between student and teacher.

Which is why I respect good teachers. But, should all these students attack their "teachers," because the word, teacher, implies "superiority" in a given field?

Heracles comes into the meeting with the predisposition that their relationship will be adversarial. Hippolyta might not be as blunt about it, but her words indicate to me she seems to see it as superior to inferior, which feeds into his assessment [ and Ares scheme]. Its a mark of the bitterness Athena identifies.

Is her seeking peace to his seeking war not "superior"? Does she not prove that she is a match for him via her superiority in the art of battle? Even Ares never seems bothered that his little sister is seen as superior to him when it comes to battle strategy.

Edit : oh and this historical figured you nentioned above didnt fail because they actually got people to listen and change their minds. Hippolyta gets nowhere at all. Which of course is why they need Diana, who will surpass her mother in this arena.

Some people listen. Others do not. Thus, we do not have peace. Why? No matter what any of them said, individually and collectively, people still make their own choices.

And you didn't answer my question: Heracles could have chosen to not attack - right or wrong?

[brettc1]

Here is what I think.

Could Heracles have made a better choice. Yes.

Did Hippolyta help him to make a better choice. No

Did Hippolyta's words make it more likely he would make a bad choice. Yes.

It doesn't MATTER if Hippolyta is resentful, because as you have so successfully argued she controls how she acts and what she says. What's good for the gander is good for the goose. Nor do I think you can successfully complain about the gods asking the Amazons to be the ones working to bring about peace. If want the gods to enforce peace, you just threw out free will.

The whole point of the Amazons is they have to show that humans can be better even in the world as it is. Do you think that is not a worthy goal? Or maybe it's just that you don't like anyone, be it me, Athenaor Perez himself, pointing out where the Amazons made mistakes. In which case you see them as perfect, and I thought that was something people didn't like because others point out it makes the Perez Amazons boring and Azzarello's more interesting.

As far as Heracles transformation goes, the general opinion seems to it was the result of prolonged torture. Do you think? Should we torture everyone sent to prison? Should Wonder Woman torture Cheetah and Dr Psyco to help them become better human beings?

OR does punishment actually not change values? Is it rather that it was his connection with Hippolyta through the lasso that finally changed how Heracles thought, so that his transformation was not just "I won't do this again because I'm afraid of the consequences" but rather "I won't do this again because I understand it is wrong."

But if we are going to say that what people say to other people, or how we communicate with them, makes no impact on whether they make good choices, then I'll point out that you are ridiculing my profession and effectively saying my work over the last 30 years has no value.


So, is that what you're saying?

[Awonder]

Could Heracles have made a better choice. Yes.

That's putting it mildly.

Did Hippolyta help him to make a better choice. No

That's a bit too harsh.

Did Hippolyta's words make it more likely he would make a bad choice. Yes.

He's lucky it wasn't me.

It doesn't MATTER if Hippolyta is resentful,

Then, why did you bring it up several times?

because as you have so successfully argued she controls how she acts and what she says.

Are you admitting I'm right?

What's good for the gander is good for the goose.

Are you making this about gender? ;-)

Nor do I think you can successfully complain about the gods asking the Amazons to be the ones working to bring about peace.

I have no problem with the gods asking the Amazons to work for peace - in fact, I quite like it. But, when they start complaining that the Amazons failed? "Hey, Athena, how you doing with peace on Olympus? Yeah, I thought so."

If want the gods to enforce peace,

Not what I said.

you just threw out free will.

Nope. It should be clear by now that I'm big into free will.

The whole point of the Amazons is they have to show that humans can be better even in the world as it is. Do you think that is not a worthy goal?

Absolutely, it's a worthy goal. It's, also, very difficult. Sexism, racism, lots of -ism, murder, rape, greed, etc., all alive and well, even after all the efforts by all the good men, women, and children working on it for thousands of years.

Or maybe it's just that you don't like anyone, be it me, Athenaor Perez himself, pointing out where the Amazons made mistakes.

Nope. I've been saying for years that they aren't perfect - and that it's ok they aren't perfect. Have I claimed that Hippolyta's words here are perfect? Nope.

In which case you see them as perfect,

Never said that, so I don't know where you got that idea.

and I thought that was something people didn't like because others point out it makes the Perez Amazons boring and Azzarello's more interesting.

Oh, lets not go there.

As far as Heracles transformation goes, the general opinion seems to it was the result of prolonged torture. Do you think? Should we torture everyone sent to prison? Should Wonder Woman torture Cheetah and Dr Psyco to help them become better human beings?

I never advocated for the how, especially not torture as transformation. I simply pointed out that the text is clear, he changed over time.

OR does punishment actually not change values?

And, women surrendering to mad men that want to rape and kill them does?

Is it rather that it was his connection with Hippolyta through the lasso that finally changed how Heracles thought, so that his transformation was not just "I won't do this again because I'm afraid of the consequences" but rather "I won't do this again because I understand it is wrong."

I pointed out that scene yesterday(?). I quite like that use of the lasso.

But if we are going to say that what people say to other people, or how we communicate with them, makes no impact on whether they make good choices, then I'll point out that you are ridiculing my profession and effectively saying my work over the last 30 years has no value.

Did I not praise good teachers in general and you specifically? For a thread that wants to scrutinize every little word choice, you seem to forget a lot of things that have been said.

In which case we have no further need to converse.

Do as you choose.

So, is that what you're saying?

Not even close. I don't think our views are that far apart really. But, it seems clear that in all(?) our disagreements over the years - Sacrifice, A League of One, etc - you lean more towards idealism while I lean a little more towards realism/practicality. Would you agree?

I like idealism, it's why I like superheroes, in general, and particularly WW. But, idealism is a hard fit in a not ideal world. It's not unlike cold fusion - sounds good, but, we have, yet, to really make it work.

You point out that Hippolyta could have chosen her words better to try to lessen the likelihood of conflict. It's a valid point. I haven't been arguing that her words could not be better.

I do think it's harsh to think that her word choice is really grounds for war though. Are we all supposed to fight every time a word choice is less than stellar? Sounds "foolish" to me. I hear much worse playing basketball.

My main point has been choice. To me, you diminish Heracles' own ability to choose when you claim Hippolyta's words triggered or caused the conflict. And, it's not just a story - it's a powerful idea we can all use. Have you read "The Hiding Place"? Reading that hit me profoundly (thanks to a good teacher, btw). Someone can walk out of a German concentration camp, where they killed her family, and still choose to see the good?

Yes, words can hurt. "Words will never hurt me" isn't really true, as seen in your example of cyber bullying. I don't wish to downplay that kind of emotional hurt. Your "lesson" on this is good, a good way to help understand kindness and empathy. But, as I said, it would be incomplete.

Because, no matter what anyone says - and I know it can hurt - my choices are still my choices. It's an ownership of self. I don't have to just react to my emotions, because, as thinking beings, we are more than just our emotions. It's freeing. It's liberating. It's empowering. It's very WW.

Maybe I just empathize with Hippolyta, because none of the word choices in any of my posts over the years have ever been perfect. So, imperfect words is really all I know.

[brettc1]

A better question would be, are you admitting that you are right?

If Hippolyta really is in command of her choices then her resentment towards Heracles should not really be an issue. His insulting her is not an excuse for her insulting him, and the attitude of men towards the Amazons is an explanation for how they feel but it is not a justification for their actions as manifested by their Queen.

As I see it, your central argument boils down to Hippolyta should have been able to say absolutely anything to Heracles, and then he should have behaved reasonably. You have said above that I tend towards idealism, but a teacher managing a class has to be somewhat pragmatic in their approach.

That being the case I can assure you with 100% certainty based on a quarter of a century of experience, that it is pointless to try and communicate with somebody based on how you WISH they were. Whether its based on academic ability, or personality type, or just how they are feeling in that moment, you have to be able to modify your approach to meet their particular needs. And teachers are trained to know that if you say the wrong thing at the wrong time you can easily EASILY make a volatile situation worse.

Hippolyta's situation is not that much different to me having a child in my room throwing a tantrum, a situation I have dealt with many times. Your first concern is always the safety of your students. If I were assessing Hippolyta's approach [and I am] I would tell her her strategy was too confrontational. Assigning blame to Heracles for his obvious shortcomings does NOTHING to actually manage the problem, maintain peace, and ensure safety. He is a child in a rage and he is not going to respond to challenges with grace. That thinking is not just idealistic, it is counterproductive.

I think Hippolyta should have known better, but for whatever reason she let him get under her skin. She LOST control of the situation when she failed to mange her own feelings effectively and was drawn into game of one-ups-man-ship. The only other explanation is that Hippolyta's situation was hopeless right from the start, and Heracles was going to do what he did no matter what. That to me seems to void his ability to choose. If he can only act one way, then he has no free will at all. Since we both agree I take it that that isnt the case, the Hippolyta DOES have the capacity to influence the outcome.

I can empathize with her as well, as demonstrated by my various uses of the edit function on this thread. But that does not prevent me from pointing out as a professional communicator where she went wrong.

[Awonder]

A better question would be, are you admitting that you are right?

Of course. I'm always right (except when I'm not).

If Hippolyta really is in command of her choices then her resentment towards Heracles should not really be an issue. His insulting her is not an excuse for her insulting him,

She doesn't seem to care much about his insults (far worse than anything she said); she cares about the army with ill intentions he brought to her home.

... and the attitude of men towards the Amazons is an explanation for how they feel but it is not a justification for their actions as manifested by their Queen.

"Attitude"? I think you are severely minimizing the experience of women in ancient times (and all of history). "Hunted" is far from just "attitude."

As I see it, your central argument boils down to Hippolyta should have been able to say absolutely anything to Heracles, and then he should have behaved reasonably.

Well, that's a twisted version of it. Again, you get irked and don't attack, right? That isn't your superpower as countless people do the same all the time. Nothing she says is all that harsh.

You have said above that I tend towards idealism, but a teacher managing a class has to be somewhat pragmatic in their approach.

Good point. And kudos to you for managing and molding young minds.

That being the case I can assure you with 100% certainty based on a quarter of a century of experience, that it is pointless to try and communicate with somebody based on how you WISH they were.

Another good point. But, it's funny, because isn't this what you are doing here? Hippolyta can't deal with Heracles in issue #1 as if he was the Heracles in issue #14, right? Because who he became eons later is not who she may have WISHED him to be when they first met.

Whether its based on academic ability, or personality type, or just how they are feeling in that moment, you have to be able to modify your approach to meet their particular needs. And teachers are trained to know that if you say the wrong thing at the wrong time you can easily EASILY make a volatile situation worse.

True. I'm not saying that a volatile situation can't be made worse. But, I am saying that there's no perfect words here, because no matter what she says, he still makes his own choices.

Hippolyta's situation is not that much different to me having a child in my room throwing a tantrum, a situation I have dealt with many times.

No. Heracles and his army are a far cry from a child tantrum. Again, I respect good teachers, but, c'mon, man. The classroom is not armed combat. More important, why do you keep treating Heracles as a child?

Your first concern is always the safety of your students. If I were assessing Hippolyta's approach [and I am] I would tell her her strategy was too confrontational. Assigning blame to Heracles for his obvious shortcomings does NOTHING to actually manage the problem, maintain peace, and ensure safety.

And her first concern is her people. She isn't hiding in a castle, right? She didn't attack him as soon as he stepped foot on her property. She doesn't keep attacking him even after he's attacked her TWICE. You do see that, right?

He is a child in a rage and he is not going to respond to challenges with grace. That thinking is not just idealistic, it is counterproductive.

Except he isn't a child.

I think Hippolyta should have known better, but for whatever reason she let him get under her skin.

Whatever reason? You mean the army that's there to destroy everyone she loves?

She LOST control of the situation when she failed to mange her own feelings effectively and was drawn into game of one-ups-man-ship.

She never had control because other people make their own choices. Do you keep skipping the end of the WW movie?

The only other explanation is that Hippolyta's situation was hopeless right from the start, and Heracles was going to do what he did no matter what. That to me seems to void his ability to choose. If he can only act one way, then he has no free will at all. Since we both agree I take it that that isnt the case, the Hippolyta DOES have the capacity to influence the outcome.

You keep putting the onus for his behavior on her. Just because he chose violence, that does not mean he lacked the ability to choose. So, words can only go so far, because his behacior is still his choice.

I can empathize with her as well, as demonstrated by my various uses of the edit function on this thread. But that does not prevent me from pointing out as a professional communicator where she went wrong.

And, how many armed conflicts have you negotiated? My best friend is a crisis team leader - this is what he's been doing for almost as long as you've been in the classroom. The ideal of trying to not make a bad situation worse is solid. But, because of choice, it's always a situation you can never fully control.

And real life doesn't get the luxury of an edit button. Even if she said everything you suggest, is he not capable of still attacking her?

[brettc1]

The ideal of trying to not make a bad situation worse is solid.

So after almost 7 full pages of posts, you've finally admitted that what a person says can make a situation better or worse.

THANK you. LOL

It's a shame Hippolyta didn't have your friend there to offer advice. She clearly could have used it.

[Agent Z]

Well, this beginning is strange. First, we see Hercules speaking about his madness but also of his wrathful and callous behaviour when it comes to women, then we see a servant of Ares playing him and using him for the God of War's wishes, so it seems to imply that left to his own devices, Hercules may have had another behaviour when meeting the Amazons. Then, there is this scene where, for one as prideful as this Hercules, he is suffering great slights to his honour. But then he seems fine with it, until he behave himself like an assassin or someone bereft of honour by poisoning Hippolyta and possibly all the Amazons. But is he plainly conscious of his acts or does his madness play a part. I think that when he poison the Amazons, he is fully in control, because he has had time to cool off and think but that he was not of sane mind when encountering Hippolyta.

Overall, the Amazons can't really be blamed for the way they acted against Hercules' army. But the Goddesses plainly state that even before that, the Amazons had become an insular and isolationist society (for how long is not clear, and we don't know if it was self-imposed or the result of even the neighbouring Cities refusing to deal with them). So, there is ambiguous behaviour from them (which does not mean that they are to blame for Hercules' behaviour).

Pretty sure it's mentioned the empires of the world had been treating the Amazons with hostility.

[Mel Dyer]

An arrogant man swagger into their territory, crowing about how he's going to conquer them all.....and Hippolyta deserves criticism for throwing back a couple retorts?

So Hippolyta should only approach violent people with a beatific smile and an offer of a hug now? Interesting viewpoint.

Heracles was going to attack the Amazons regardless of what Hippolyta said or didn't say. She could've approached him wearing a Heracles-themed cheerleader outfit and chanting his name and nothing would've changed. There is nothing wrong with a leader approaching a violent aggressor from a position of strength.

As Hercules sought out the Amazons, with the intention of attacking and raping them, and pillaging their treasures, I agree with you. Polly's lack of diplomacy doesn't justify her destruction, at Hercules's hands.

[AmiMizuno]

So should #1 have been different with the amazons and Hercules ?