Perez #1 Discussion

[Vanguard-01]

Well, all we can say for sure is that Wonder Woman and the Amazons agree with the goddesses judgment, and I agree with Wonder Woman and the Amazons.

Diana wasn't there. She had no opinion on the subject.

The Amazons? They accepted the judgement because Perez SAID they accepted it. They would've said they ENJOYED the rape and torture they suffered if Perez chose to write that into the script.

Perez tried to claim Hippolyta brought the enslavement of herself and her people upon herself. Based on the evidence at hand, I don't agree. And if Perez insists that it is so through the characters he controlled, I reject his attempt to justify this falsehood just as surely as I would've rejected the Amazon's claim that the rape was a fun romp if Perez attempted to claim that it was. The evidence doesn't match up with his claims.

[Vanguard-01]

Actually, it is clear she massively wrong.

She beat him in the straight fight with seemingly no difficulty. Too bad she wasn't a telepath and couldn't read his plans to drug her.

She thought they were there for a fight. She thought she could win. And win she did. It's not her fault that Heracles resorted to cowardly, shameful tactics that the men of his time would've condemned as "a woman's tactic" in order to get what he wanted.

[Awonder]

Yes. You see how easy it is.

Getting angry is easy, if that's what you mean. Are you saying you are mad? If so, at what? I don't understand.

Yes, and the Amazons chose to kill all of those men as an act of vengeance. We can safely assume that by the end of the battle the defeated Greeks were either fleeing or trying to surrender, but they were killed to a man.

They were killed for what they chose to do - the attack on the Amazons. What does this have to do with Hippolyta's words to Hercules before he chose to attack?

So you have said that people are responsible for what they do, and those they do it to are not. So if a Greek were trying to surrender to an Amazon he had ravaged, and she killed him anyway, that's all on her. Apparently.

Yes, she chose to kill him. Not for words. For his actions. "He ravaged her" is a far different action than calling someone "foolish."

Belligerent demi-gods, 6 year olds... it's all the same except the height.

No. It really isn't. I admire the work good teachers do, but you aren't on the battlefield.

[brettc1]

Diana wasn't there. She had no opinion on the subject.

The Amazons? They accepted the judgement because Perez SAID they accepted it. They would've said they ENJOYED the rape and torture they suffered if Perez chose to write that into the script.

Perez tried to claim Hippolyta brought the enslavement of herself and her people upon herself. Based on the evidence at hand, I don't agree. And if Perez insists that it is so through the characters he controlled, I reject his attempt to justify this falsehood just as surely as I would've rejected the Amazon's claim that the rape was a fun romp if Perez attempted to claim that it was. The evidence doesn't match up with his claims.

Which is why Perez #1 is worth discussing, even thought it so often held up as the epitome of Wonder Woman origins.

Perez point, via Athena, is quite clear. The Amazons were given new life and a mission to go out a be examples, and instead they allowed themselves to be penned in and chose isolation. Their fear is understandable, but ultimately counter-productive. Their retreat in the face of hostility makes their persecution more likely, not less.

Had the Amazons remained active despite the persecution, I have no doubt that some of them would have suffered and even died. That course of action is not without risks. In the modern era, Perez has Diana acknowledge this very point. Putting themselves out there means putting themselves in the way of possible, even probable harm.

However, to bring it back to the movie, Diana is clear on the point that is "our sacred duty to defend the world." Even in the movie after Antiope and others of her sisters have been killed, she still sees this as their obligation. Still, Diana asks no more of her sisters than she asks of herself, which is what makes her a great leader.

So I can see the point that Perez is making her via Athena. Retreat in the face of fear does not ensure safety, it merely prolongs persecution. Sadly by the time the true confrontation arises the fear and distrust of the Amazons fostered by Ares is so entrenched in Greek culture that a disaster is all but inevitable. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hatred, and so on.

[brettc1]

No. It really isn't. I admire the work good teachers do, but you aren't on the battlefield.

You might feel differently if you had had pieces of concrete thrown at you or been hit over the back of the head with a chair.

[brettc1]

Getting angry is easy, if that's what you mean. Are you saying you are mad? If so, at what? I don't understand.

Then I will say no more.

They were killed for what they chose to do - the attack on the Amazons. What does this have to do with Hippolyta's words to Hercules before he chose to attack?

Um, no. You said that people are responsible for their actions. They were killed because the Amazons chose to kill them.

Yes, she chose to kill him. Not for words. For his actions. "He ravaged her" is a far different action than calling someone "foolish."

So, revenge.

[Awonder]

You might feel differently if you had had pieces of concrete thrown at you or been hit over the back of the head with a chair.

That sucks. Here's to better days!

[Awonder]

Then I will say no more.

Your choice. But, if you change your mind, I'm willing to listen and try to understand.

Um, no. You said that people are responsible for their actions. They were killed because the Amazons chose to kill them.

People are responsible for their actions. You disagree?

So, revenge.

Yes. And?

[brettc1]

She beat him in the straight fight with seemingly no difficulty. Too bad she wasn't a telepath and couldn't read his plans to drug her.

She thought they were there for a fight. She thought she could win. And win she did. It's not her fault that Heracles resorted to cowardly, shameful tactics that the men of his time would've condemned as "a woman's tactic" in order to get what he wanted.

Cowardly and shameful are in the point of view. I've never subscribed to the idea that if one person stabs an opponent in the back it is cowardly, but if another person stabs their enemy in the back it's heroic.

Now the mass torture of prisoners is shameful, but outwitting an opponent you cannot match blow for blow is not. What Heracles did is not actually any different to what Odysseus did with the wooden horse to get into Troy. It's what Heracles and his men do after that is shameful.

[brettc1]

People are responsible for their actions. You disagree?

EVERYONE is responsible for their actions. As the goddesses in Perez #1 point out.

Yes. And?

Revenge is wrong.

[Awonder]

EVERYONE is responsible for their actions. As the goddesses in Perez #1 point out.

So, the goddesses agree to me.

[brettc1]

So, the goddesses agree to me.

No. All events are links in a chain. Hippolyta's words and Ares schemes might be a few links back, the Amazons isolation further still, but they remain part of the same unfortunate series of actions leading to tragedy.

To quote the movie, "We are all to blame."

[Awonder]

No. All events are links in a chain. Hippolyta's words and Ares schemes might be a few links back, the Amazons isolation further still, but they remain part of the same unfortunate series of actions leading to tragedy.

To quote the movie, "We are all to blame."

All these "links" are not created equal, "we are not all to blame" equally.

[brettc1]

All these "links" are not created equal, "we are not all to blame" equally.

Does it matter, if they all contribute to the same terrible outcome? Enough snow flakes will still cause an avalanche.

[Awonder]

Does it matter, if they all contribute to the same terrible outcome? Enough snow flakes will still cause an avalanche.

You serious? Of course, it matters.

Would you suggest we put the wife on trial for her husband beating her for saying he was "foolish"?