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  1. #1
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    Default Heroes Who will never be forgiven (DC Heroes only)!

    http://www.cbr.com/heroes-well-never-forgive/

    Anyone agree with this article (I am referring to the DC Heroes only.)

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member Sodam Yat's Avatar
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    Seeing John Stewart and Hal Jordan making it on the list isn't really surprising LOL.

    I always thought Batman bringing the Joker back to life was one of the most stupidest things that I ever read in comics.

  3. #3
    Ultimate Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Wonder how Injustice Superman didn't make the list.

  4. #4
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    But John Steward killed Mogo too didnt he?

  5. #5

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    I completely disagree with its assessment of the Flash.

    Yes, superheroes are not supposed to time-travel into the past the change some bad event in history to make it better. (Occasionally they do anyway, but it's usually superheroes from the future changing something that we consider to be in the present, so it feels different to the reader. It does raise the question of why those superheroes from the future don't continue to go back into further the past, killing Hitler, saving the Library at Alexandria, and so on. It's all the past to them.)

    But there is one exception to this rule: if an evil time-traveling supervillain goes into the past and changes history to make it worse, the superheroes are supposed to follow him back there and change history back to what it was originally. And then apprehend the villain so he can't do it again. That's their job. This is the plot line of a large percentage of superhero time-travel stories.

    When Eobard Thawne went into the past and changed history by killing Nora Allen, Barry Allen was right to go back and try to undo that malicious change to existing history. Even if the victim was somebody he didn't know. The fact that it was his own mother is just icing on the cake, from a heroic point of view.

    But DC changed the rules, giving Thawne "Negative Speed Force" powers so that Barry could not, quite properly, undo the change to history committed by a supervillain. And so Barry gets blamed for "breaking history," by doing exactly what he was supposed to do (and had done in other circumstances before). But the blame belongs to Eobard Thawne - and even more, to the DC writers and editors, who created this no-win situation for one of their greatest heroes.

    In the TV show it's even worse - there's not special "Negative Speed Force" that Thawne has that produces this result. There's just the coffee-mug rule: if somebody breaks the past, it's broken. Don't try to fix it; that will only break it more. This is a completely nihilistic view of superhero time travel - supervillains are free to change the past in horrible ways, and there's absolutely nothing a superhero can do to fix it. He'll only make it worse. Whoopie!

    (The TV show has other problems with their time travel as well. Ever notice that, when Barry goes back one day in time - to stop a tidal wave or prevent Vandal Savage from destroying a city - he doesn't run into Barry-from-one-day-ago when he gets there. That day-previous Barry does not seem to exist. But when he goes back about 20 years and visits the scene of his mother's murder, little Barry of 20 years ago exists, and is sitting right there. But that's a whole different essay....)

    Right now, in The Flash comics, Barry is infused with "Negative Speed Force." I hope he will take the opportunity to go into the past and save his mother, fixing the evil change to history that Thawne made. This is his chance! And we can do away with nihilistic, no-win-for-the-good-guys time travel rules.
    Last edited by Doctor Bifrost; 10-03-2017 at 05:04 PM.
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  6. #6
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Bifrost View Post
    I completely disagree with its assessment of the Flash.
    So do I, but that's just because I refuse to acknowledge Johns version as "Barry Allen".
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  7. #7
    insulin4all CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodam Yat View Post
    Seeing John Stewart and Hal Jordan making it on the list isn't really surprising LOL.
    John's Cosmic Odyssey actions were written for Guy Gardner. John was substitued due to character availability. I cut John a lot of slack there.

  8. #8
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    How the blue hell is someone like Niles Caulder not on this list? Really. I think if your going to do a list of unforgiven heroes on dc's side there are better choices than what we got here. Hawk for example or Green Arrow or Jason Todd, or Raven.
    Last edited by DJ1107; 10-03-2017 at 06:13 PM.

  9. #9
    Sun of the Mourning Montressor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ1107 View Post
    How the blue hell is someone like Niles Caulder not on this list? Really. I think if your going to do a list of unforgiven heroes on dc's side there are better choices than what we got here. Hawk for example or Green Arrow or Jason Todd, or Raven.
    Popped in just to say this. I don't care what Pollack wrote, it makes no sense whatsoever that he was forgiven by the surviving team members. And looking back at the original run is almost painful, realizing Niles is full of it the entire time (the team at one point surprises him on his birthday with a cake, and it was such a dark scene just imagining what he was secretly thinking as he smiled falsely in their faces).

    As a writer I LOVED the reveal, and my hatred of Niles Caulder simply means I'm invested, but I wouldn't be the least bit upset if some future writer killed him off in a particularly violent and permanent way.
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  10. #10
    Astonishing Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    John's Cosmic Odyssey actions were written for Guy Gardner. John was substitued due to character availability. I cut John a lot of slack there.
    It would be interesting if Guy Guardener actually was the one to blow up Xanshi, instead of John. It would probably alter his entire character.

  11. #11
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ1107 View Post
    How the blue hell is someone like Niles Caulder not on this list?
    I assume current CBR list makers haven't read a lot of comics and/or the current mandate is to focus on less obscure, more "movie audience" friendly characters.

    I miss Jonah.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  12. #12
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    I don't know. It's always hard for me to find DC heroes Unforgivable. At least the ones listed here anyway I got my own list of guys who are more Unforgivable. Like Hawk. That guy basically went nanners for stupid reasons & went on a killing spree through time to destroy it & then is somehow buddies with Dove again for some reason After Blackest Night. Green Arrow kinda falls in an unforgivable pile given a lot of assholeish moments throughout his history. Raven kinda keeps getting possessed by something or other.

  13. #13
    DC/Collected Editions Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Bifrost View Post
    I completely disagree with its assessment of the Flash.

    Yes, superheroes are not supposed to time-travel into the past the change some bad event in history to make it better. (Occasionally they do anyway, but it's usually superheroes from the future changing something that we consider to be in the present, so it feels different to the reader. It does raise the question of why those superheroes from the future don't continue to go back into further the past, killing Hitler, saving the Library at Alexandria, and so on. It's all the past to them.)

    But there is one exception to this rule: if an evil time-traveling supervillain goes into the past and changes history to make it worse, the superheroes are supposed to follow him back there and change history back to what it was originally. And then apprehend the villain so he can't do it again. That's their job. This is the plot line of a large percentage of superhero time-travel stories.

    When Eobard Thawne went into the past and changed history by killing Nora Allen, Barry Allen was right to go back and try to undo that malicious change to existing history. Even if the victim was somebody he didn't know. The fact that it was his own mother is just icing on the cake, from a heroic point of view.

    But DC changed the rules, giving Thawne "Negative Speed Force" powers so that Barry could not, quite properly, undo the change to history committed by a supervillain. And so Barry gets blamed for "breaking history," by doing exactly what he was supposed to do (and had done in other circumstances before). But the blame belongs to Eobard Thawne - and even more, to the DC writers and editors, who created this no-win situation for one of their greatest heroes.

    In the TV show it's even worse - there's not special "Negative Speed Force" that Thawne has that produces this result. There's just the coffee-mug rule: if somebody breaks the past, it's broken. Don't try to fix it; that will only break it more. This is a completely nihilistic view of superhero time travel - supervillains are free to change the past in horrible ways, and there's absolutely nothing a superhero can do to fix it. He'll only make it worse. Whoopie!

    (The TV show has other problems with their time travel as well. Ever notice that, when Barry goes back one day in time - to stop a tidal wave or prevent Vandal Savage from destroying a city - he doesn't run into Barry-from-one-day-ago when he gets there. That day-previous Barry does not seem to exist. But when he goes back about 20 years and visits the scene of his mother's murder, little Barry of 20 years ago exists, and is sitting right there. But that's a whole different essay....)

    Right now, in The Flash comics, Barry is infused with "Negative Speed Force." I hope he will take the opportunity to go into the past and save his mother, fixing the evil change to history that Thawne made. This is his chance! And we can do away with nihilistic, no-win-for-the-good-guys time travel rules.
    Yep, yep, and yep. DC wanted Barry saddled with a tragedy and no time-travel logic from decades of comic-book history was going to dissuade them otherwise.
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  14. #14
    Astonishing Member Sodam Yat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    John's Cosmic Odyssey actions were written for Guy Gardner. John was substitued due to character availability. I cut John a lot of slack there.
    I'm definitely aware that the role was originally suited for Guy Gardner. Although it was said by Jim Starlin that it was false about the role wasn't originally intended for Guy, but I don't believe his claims. What John did was way out of character.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Is Niles Caulder like What if Professor X were devil? Also is the current Doom Patrol accurate when it comes to Niles?

    Clayface should not be forgiven but thrown into the ocean!

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